Leader of the pack

[2BullyMama]

Dont I know it! It's exhausting.

The hardest part is the aggression towards other dogs.

Yep -- Banks was a 9 year training session :D

 

[mackbob]

Thanks for chiming in. At this stage, I feel like it's a training battle vs. a collar battle! He does well in his K9, but he still pulls, especially at the beginning of walks.

There are a lot of different opinions on the best way to train "your" dog, I have gotten so many conflicting opinions also (not on here, just from talking to people, asking around, etc.) I think it's different for every dog. I think Thor is just a puppy who got surrendered because he was a handful (aka a puppy) and developed some bad habits along the way because of his PO.

My first rescue was a walk in the park, and I think we were hoping for another breezy situation. It's a good thing I'm more stubborn than the dogs!


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I think you need to get to the bottom of what triggers the aggression. Is it fear, is it control, is it dominance? Dogs always attack for a reason. They are much more simple then us humans! And once you figure out what the trigger is you can work on undoing that. When you say he "attacks" what does that look like?

 

[YHSublime]

I think you need to get to the bottom of what triggers the aggression. Is it fear, is it control, is it dominance? Dogs always attack for a reason. They are much more simple then us humans! And once you figure out what the trigger is you can work on undoing that. When you say he "attacks" what does that look like?

I believe you're right. I had a friend who is a vet tech and dog trainer suggest that it sounds like fear, but I disagree. I think it is dominance. I'm not sure how to stop it, or identify it, but here is why I have concluded dominance.

Thor goes out of his way to stand over Taco's head. Taco could be sleeping, and he'll walk over and just stand over top of him. He also tries to be first into rooms, higher up than everybody else, etc. I'm working on this by making him work for everything. He's very receptive, and he sits before we go out doors, and waits for me to call him, etc.

When we visit the dog park, I think it's sensory overload, and you can't tell him anything. He will strut up and down the fence at dogs or people on the outside of the park, and again with the dominance, treats the dog park like his own. I go with both of the dogs, and I will keep Thor leashed, and Taco will play with all the other dogs. I make Thor sit between my legs, and watch. He used to bark at the other dogs, and we've gotten past that. I would let him off the leash, but I guarantee he would run right for the first dog in his line of sight and attack it. Even dogs that submit, he paws at them and tries to flip them (or maybe just a rough player?) There is one dog that he gets along with, a small Frenchie. The frenchie is also deemed a rough player because he's very vocal ie. barks and growls, etc, but him and Thor play great. Thor also will lunge at other dogs if they come close enough, after seeming like he was calm and collected.

 

[mackbob]

I believe you're right. I had a friend who is a vet tech and dog trainer suggest that it sounds like fear, but I disagree. I think it is dominance. I'm not sure how to stop it, or identify it, but here is why I have concluded dominance.

Thor goes out of his way to stand over Taco's head. Taco could be sleeping, and he'll walk over and just stand over top of him. He also tries to be first into rooms, higher up than everybody else, etc. I'm working on this by making him work for everything. He's very receptive, and he sits before we go out doors, and waits for me to call him, etc.

When we visit the dog park, I think it's sensory overload, and you can't tell him anything. He will strut up and down the fence at dogs or people on the outside of the park, and again with the dominance, treats the dog park like his own. I go with both of the dogs, and I will keep Thor leashed, and Taco will play with all the other dogs. I make Thor sit between my legs, and watch. He used to bark at the other dogs, and we've gotten past that. I would let him off the leash, but I guarantee he would run right for the first dog in his line of sight and attack it. Even dogs that submit, he paws at them and tries to flip them (or maybe just a rough player?) There is one dog that he gets along with, a small Frenchie. The frenchie is also deemed a rough player because he's very vocal ie. barks and growls, etc, but him and Thor play great. Thor also will lunge at other dogs if they come close enough, after seeming like he was calm and collected.

Ok. Thanks for the reply! I believe there's a few things going on here.

1. The breed. Bulldog/Boxer. Highly dominant. Stubborn. Will always challenge and then some before they give it up.
2. Bulldogs play rough - some rougher than others. The frenchie being a bully is the right kinda rough for Thor.
3. I agree this isn't fear and that it's 100% dominance but more then that...

He's being Mr. Policeman.

Mr. Policeman bulldogs are a huge pain in the ***. Ha. He believes it is his job to police everyone and let them know that he's the police and they need to move the way he likes and he's all up in their business and if not they get flipped and dominated until he's satisfied. Does he bite or is this just aggressive bullying?

I think your job to not allow him to do any policing ever - standing over Taco etc. All of that falls into the policing category. You're the police man and the Alpha.

Might sound weird but Alpha and police are a little different. You can still be the Alpha. But he can still be a policeman while you're the Alpha. Close pack members often switch off and have different roles. So outdoors he is CERTAIN it's his territory - as is that park. He just has to realize it's your territory. Is he like this at all dog parks? or just that one?

Bully's as you know you give them an inch and they take whatever they can! Bob my bully is obviously way bigger then his 18lb furry brother. So when his bro got into it with another Bully, Bob came to the rescue and gently but firmly flipped the other bully and made it clear he needs to back off. I was really proud of him. But then..... of course Bulldog Ego Maniac Stubborn Dominant Bulldog got the wrong idea. And started to believe this was somehow now his "all the time" job! Had to nip that in the bud. They quickly get the wrong idea and take it too far! :D

Try and see if there's any place that he's getting the wrong idea. Even if it's where he's sleeping/sitting/etc. I also might feel he would benefit from a pack environment. Where there actually ARE real alpha's and a lot of bulldogs. Something like that can be very helpful for socializing.

 

[YHSublime]

Ok. Thanks for the reply! I believe there's a few things going on here.

1. The breed. Bulldog/Boxer. Highly dominant. Stubborn. Will always challenge and then some before they give it up.
2. Bulldogs play rough - some rougher than others. The frenchie being a bully is the right kinda rough for Thor.
3. I agree this isn't fear and that it's 100% dominance but more then that...

He's being Mr. Policeman.

Mr. Policeman bulldogs are a huge pain in the ***. Ha. He believes it is his job to police everyone and let them know that he's the police and they need to move the way he likes and he's all up in their business and if not they get flipped and dominated until he's satisfied. Does he bite or is this just aggressive bullying?

I think your job to not allow him to do any policing ever - standing over Taco etc. All of that falls into the policing category. You're the police man and the Alpha.

Might sound weird but Alpha and police are a little different. You can still be the Alpha. But he can still be a policeman while you're the Alpha. Close pack members often switch off and have different roles. So outdoors he is CERTAIN it's his territory - as is that park. He just has to realize it's your territory. Is he like this at all dog parks? or just that one?

Bully's as you know you give them an inch and they take whatever they can! Bob my bully is obviously way bigger then his 18lb furry brother. So when his bro got into it with another Bully, Bob came to the rescue and gently but firmly flipped the other bully and made it clear he needs to back off. I was really proud of him. But then..... of course Bulldog Ego Maniac Stubborn Dominant Bulldog got the wrong idea. And started to believe this was somehow now his "all the time" job! Had to nip that in the bud. They quickly get the wrong idea and take it too far! :D

Try and see if there's any place that he's getting the wrong idea. Even if it's where he's sleeping/sitting/etc. I also might feel he would benefit from a pack environment. Where there actually ARE real alpha's and a lot of bulldogs. Something like that can be very helpful for socializing.

Yeah, I like knowing that if Taco ever got into a pinch that Thor would be there in a heartbeat, but Taco is really just a lover. He's probably the most genuine soul I've ever met.

Thor especially is always looking to draft into first place, and it's exhausting. I'm seeing improvements, but it's taken months. I always knock him off when he's standing over Taco, and if he's ever trying to stand on top or over me, I usually just flip him on his back and give him a quick cuddle, he actually seems to enjoy this, as well as being coddled like a baby.


At the dog park, the way we've gotten his barking under control is by doing some clicker training when nobody is around, this has allowed me to let him know that it's an area that I'm in control, and he also gets rewarded for listening to me. I still do not let him off his leash, as I mentioned, he has to sit, usually right in between my legs, which he will do.


It would be so much easier if he could just play nice! This morning I was running a little late, and it was just the boys in the park. Thor runs like a cheetah, and even at 3-4 miles a day in walks (all at once) it's not enough to wear him down even slightly.

 

[Goob14]

Yeah, I like knowing that if Taco ever got into a pinch that Thor would be there in a heartbeat, but Taco is really just a lover. He's probably the most genuine soul I've ever met.

Thor especially is always looking to draft into first place, and it's exhausting. I'm seeing improvements, but it's taken months. I always knock him off when he's standing over Taco, and if he's ever trying to stand on top or over me, I usually just flip him on his back and give him a quick cuddle, he actually seems to enjoy this, as well as being coddled like a baby.


At the dog park, the way we've gotten his barking under control is by doing some clicker training when nobody is around, this has allowed me to let him know that it's an area that I'm in control, and he also gets rewarded for listening to me. I still do not let him off his leash, as I mentioned, he has to sit, usually right in between my legs, which he will do.


It would be so much easier if he could just play nice! This morning I was running a little late, and it was just the boys in the park. Thor runs like a cheetah, and even at 3-4 miles a day in walks (all at once) it's not enough to wear him down even slightly.

I was just wondering what these "attacks" are like when Thor goes after another dog. Is he drawing blood? Is he biting? Or is it tackling and growling? Goob doesn't play nicely with others...people or dogs. But we know that when he starts to lower his head and stares the person or dog in the eye, he is going to lunge for them. He "went after" a dog when he got out of the back yard but he just tackled the dog and sat on top of it...no biting although we were worried that he might.

Does he attack when other dogs get close to Taco? Close to you? I'm sure you're keeping your eyes peeled but maybe if you can tell what situation sets him off, you can give him freedom then reign him in when you see him get defensive?? Sorry I'm not much help...just throwing out some other suggestions. It sounds like Thor is GREAT...he just has issues when other dogs come around (sometimes).

 

[YHSublime]

I was just wondering what these "attacks" are like when Thor goes after another dog. Is he drawing blood? Is he biting? Or is it tackling and growling? Goob doesn't play nicely with others...people or dogs. But we know that when he starts to lower his head and stares the person or dog in the eye, he is going to lunge for them. He "went after" a dog when he got out of the back yard but he just tackled the dog and sat on top of it...no biting although we were worried that he might.

Does he attack when other dogs get close to Taco? Close to you? I'm sure you're keeping your eyes peeled but maybe if you can tell what situation sets him off, you can give him freedom then reign him in when you see him get defensive?? Sorry I'm not much help...just throwing out some other suggestions. It sounds like Thor is GREAT...he just has issues when other dogs come around (sometimes).

Here is what it looks like.

It starts with intense gazing. Very hard to keep him focused as soon as he sees another dog. I keep him leashed now at all times, he attacked a corgi in the dog park the other day, and he gets along great with the other corgi (our neighbor) he's usually alright with smaller dogs, and he paws them over. With bigger dogs, or dogs his size, he wants to bite and tackle.

After intense gazing (while on the leash) he will crouch down (think like a tiger hunting) and slink like a cat, rapidly (usually pulling on the leash) and try to approach the first dog he sees. If he can get close enough, he lunges and nips. If I make him sit and a dog runs by, he will lunge, and nip. He's really not very nice around other dogs.

He's also very protective in the house, and wary of any new guests.


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[Goob14]

Here is what it looks like.

It starts with intense gazing. Very hard to keep him focused as soon as he sees another dog. I keep him leashed now at all times, he attacked a corgi in the dog park the other day, and he gets along great with the other corgi (our neighbor) he's usually alright with smaller dogs, and he paws them over. With bigger dogs, or dogs his size, he wants to bite and tackle.

After intense gazing (while on the leash) he will crouch down (think like a tiger hunting) and slink like a cat, rapidly (usually pulling on the leash) and try to approach the first dog he sees. If he can get close enough, he lunges and nips. If I make him sit and a dog runs by, he will lunge, and nip. He's really not very nice around other dogs.

He's also very protective in the house, and wary of any new guests.


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this sounds similar to what goob does also. My husband usually turns Goob's head or covers his eyes RIGHT when the stare STARTS because it leads to the crouch and lunge like you explained. You can also redirect with a treat. Whatever you think will work that will break his stare. Of course if he is off leash and you notice this "stare" maybe he wouldn't get into the zone if you called him and offered him a treat??? Just a suggestion...we are still trying to deal with this with Goob also.

 

[YHSublime]

this sounds similar to what goob does also. My husband usually turns Goob's head or covers his eyes RIGHT when the stare STARTS because it leads to the crouch and lunge like you explained. You can also redirect with a treat. Whatever you think will work that will break his stare. Of course if he is off leash and you notice this "stare" maybe he wouldn't get into the zone if you called him and offered him a treat??? Just a suggestion...we are still trying to deal with this with Goob also.

I wouldn't be able to stop it if he was off leash, it happens way to quick. I try to redirect, or get him to look at me or elsewhere, but it's maddening to him, all energy is focused. He's great with people outside, just dogs. Are the issue. Both boys get pet all the time in the elevator, they are offended if they don't get petting a from strangers.


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[Goob14]

I know it sounds silly but could you run in the opposite direction? Sometimes if we're walking and goob gets fixated on another dog I will give his leash a quick tug and turn and quickly go in the other direction...I guess that avoidance doesn't solve the underlying issue but its a start?

 

[YHSublime]

I know it sounds silly but could you run in the opposite direction? Sometimes if we're walking and goob gets fixated on another dog I will give his leash a quick tug and turn and quickly go in the other direction...I guess that avoidance doesn't solve the underlying issue but its a start?

It's only a big issue in the dog park. My other dog LOVES playing with his pals, I think he'll just be forever leashed.


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