What is prompting these fights?

[2BullyMama]

[MENTION=12744]minibull[/MENTION] Please keep us posted and let us know if we can help


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[minibull]

So new update -- we decided to try spay and neuter then keep mostly apart for a couple of months while their hormones decline and re-evaluate. We keep one of them with each of us much of the time and have them in the same room only in a controlled situation (e.g., both of us present with them on leashes, cake pans ready to clang, walks together fine but I won't bathe them together).

Does this sound crazy? I know it may not work (hearing Banks' story reminds me of that), but I feel like we have to try. The biggest injury risk is that Winston won't back down after Buttercup growls. Vet thinks that he may back off more easily if he doesn't have his testicles. We'd also like to reduce his major marking tendency in our home.

Here's a pic of them in the garden plot yesterday (sorry it's upside down).

 

[Manydogs]

It would be so great if all works out for them and you! Best Wishes! [MENTION=12744]minibull[/MENTION]

 

[2BullyMama]

So new update -- we decided to try spay and neuter then keep mostly apart for a couple of months while their hormones decline and re-evaluate. We keep one of them with each of us much of the time and have them in the same room only in a controlled situation (e.g., both of us present with them on leashes, cake pans ready to clang, walks together fine but I won't bathe them together).

Does this sound crazy? I know it may not work (hearing Banks' story reminds me of that), but I feel like we have to try. The biggest injury risk is that Winston won't back down after Buttercup growls. Vet thinks that he may back off more easily if he doesn't have his testicles. We'd also like to reduce his major marking tendency in our home.

Here's a pic of them in the garden plot yesterday (sorry it's upside down).

View attachment 96531

It is totally worth the try.... Now that you made that decision if you don't try you may always question yourself with... What if?

With all we learned from Banks.. The biggest thing was consistentcy from us and learning/knowing her triggers... So we avoided, others we knew to place her in a command until the trigger was removed. All this is why i say she was a 9 yr training session---- in honesty, i am tearing up writing this as I miss everything about her-- especially her challenge, would do it all again in a millisecond.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[minibull]

It is totally worth the try.... Now that you made that decision if you don't try you may always question yourself with... What if?

With all we learned from Banks.. The biggest thing was consistentcy from us and learning/knowing her triggers... So we avoided, others we knew to place her in a command until the trigger was removed. All this is why i say she was a 9 yr training session---- in honesty, i am tearing up writing this as I miss everything about her-- especially her challenge, would do it all again in a millisecond.

I've actually thought about you and Banks a lot lately because I remember how much you miss her. And your statement about knowing her triggers and keeping her in a command is really on point for us. As long as we don't let either of them up on our laps or give anyone special attention we are able to keep the peace.

When I wipe Winston's paws after outside time I make her sit and stay several feet away until I finish. She's not too thrilled, but so far she listens well.

I still keep the cake pans with me and am ready to distract with promises of peanut butter to break their laser focus once Buttercup growls. We keep leashes trailing behind them at all times just in case, but it doesn't seem to bother them.

I separate them when I need to fully focus on other things. I hope that the post-op hormone changes will permit more normal life together down the road, but for now at least we are able to prevent fights and not fall into bad habits by observing these rules.

I agree that I'll feel glad to at least have tried. I did not appreciate until now how many folks have 2 or more EBs (or other dogs) who do not get along well. I feel quite sheltered as it seems all the doggie siblings I've ever known have gotten along pretty well. The worst I ever saw was when my childhood terrier was mean-spirited toward our sweet lab-shepherd mix, but she never tried to hurt her and the lab was too oblivious to realize the terrier wanted to send her back to the stork.

Sadly we cannot get their surgeries until early April unless we seek a different vet. Will update as time goes on! Thanks again for your advice and support.

 

[2BullyMama]

I really cant put into words how much of a hole there is without her--- 16 months she has been gone and it feels like it happen this morning [emoji29]

April isn't far off... Stay consistent--- sometimes that is all they need.. Is to know you won't accept their crap and you are the boss.
Sending lots if encouragement and support.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mybrindlegirl]

Hi minibull, I'm sorry it is so difficult to have Buttercup and Winston both together. I hope you will be successfull with your plans and training and will be able to keep Winston.
I know how difficult it can be. My mother's Terrier girl started suddenly (they know each other since they were young/puppy) to attack my English Bulldog girl. Reason: extreme jealousy. My girl got bitten and didn't defend herself. She just stood there, without understanding what was happening and why. After some tries I decided they have to be seperated forever, because I didn't want my girl to be hurt physically and/or psychically and because I knew one day she would start to defend herself. I didn't want her social behaviour being destroyed - and I know the Terrier will never change. For some years Püppy and I only visited my parents periodically but since a couple of month we live all together. Luckily my parents have enough space so the dogs can be seperated all the time. But everyone has to be cautious - always telling, when a dog is let out in the garden; always closing doors,...
I keep my fingers crossed for you, and am sending prayers and positive thoughts

and am ready to distract with promises of peanut butter to break their laser focus once Buttercup growls.

When I read this there came something to my mind: be careful they don't see the peanut butter as a reward in this situation instead of a distraction. Perhaps it would be better not to give food/treats in this situation, to avoid wrong connection.

 

[Isabel and Jackson]

Man, buttercup is Banks. Yes, she was spayed at 6 mths and it did nothing-- it is just who she was and how she was wired. Banks was not allowed to do anything without being told (furniture, food, going out the door) everything with her had to be monitored or she would take the 10 miles we gave her. She was hell in wheels and I'd give anything to have her back... I learned so much from her and the challenge really gave me patience i never thought I would have.... most important is all humans in home have to be consistent-- if not, she will not balance and will always react as she is


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

@2BullyMama took the words right out of my mouth. I have Izzy who is 8 & Jackson who is 4. She's been spayed since a puppy, he was recently neutered last year. They are exactly how @2BullyMama described. They can go on walks outside together, drink out of the same water bowl (sometimes).. Yet Izzy entirely glazes over into a possessive rage towards Jackson. In her defense before my boyfriend got her at 10 months old, she was abused and so she has her defense mechanism instilled in her. A veterinarian once said to us that it's because female bulldogs are naturally dominant and she feels tested when she's around Jackson. It takes one stare from either of them and she immediately wants to kill Jackson. Thank goodness for my training that I'm able to control him without a leash & he will always back down when I command it. Her on the other hand, always has to be on a lead. Dogs like this need balance and stability, which I've given to Jackson by making sure he feels safe around us but Izzy on the other hand is still something we struggle with on a daily basis. One thing that has worked for us is to prevent them from staring at each other - sometimes it's hard to tell who started it but we just snap both of them out of it with a command, this is still with Izzy on a lead at all times. I hope this helps & just know you are not alone @minibull!!

Edit: I wanted to add that before Jackson became of age (or grew into his gonads), they got along fine, always play fighting and cuddling with us on the couch together. I think having his gonads really triggered his dominance & Izzy did not like it at all.

 

[natski282]

Are you in anyway tense, anticipating the behavior or nervous? If yes, then which ever you are petting is picking up on this and feeling the need to protect you from the other. Is that possible?

We had similar issues with Banks, her and Nitschke were just like your two and on a whim she would full on attack him for no reason--- she ended up being a 9 yr training session, could not let her have an inch or her beeotchyness would kick in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well said and we have gone threw this with Odin and Dakota and still do to a much smaller degree, but most times it is when The Prettyone comes home Friday night and over the weekend when she is here pure jealous from Dakota to Odin if he approaches The Prettyone in My view , the other part of the problem is I am the corrector versus The Prettyone ( she is not great at it ) where as I take NO prisoners compared . Odin is not one to attack but Dakota has NO fear and has made the mistake a couple of time and paid for it , No vet bills but close .
It is a work in progress and we are seeing signs of better relations but it is by spreading the love equal and not allowing Dakota to DEMAND it all

 

[punky]

i have this problem at times also.. i can tell by how then look and act if a fight will happen and i immediately correct them.. i can't pet one without the other getting upset and want to fight.. so i do like was mentioned and usually will give one extra attention if we are alone together and vise versa.. it works out great but i understand it would be nice if i could sit and pamper all of them at once.. they can all run and play and do when i am around but if i have to have someone stay at my house and watch them i leave instructions not to have to two younger ones out with the older one.. its usually one of my sisters and she will ask why when i have them out together.. i tried explaining that "I" can let them because i can tell by how they act , look, and even walk if the bulling will start and if it is stopped before it even begins then there isn't any problems.. they can't tell when something is about to happen until its to late and fight is on.. i think my dogs know i am the alfa.. good luck i hope you find a way to make it work..

 

[minibull]

It takes one stare from either of them and she immediately wants to kill Jackson. Thank goodness for my training that I'm able to control him without a leash & he will always back down when I command it. ... I hope this helps & just know you are not alone @minibull!!

Thanks for sharing your experience! I see the same thing with staring. We got Winston neutered a few weeks ago and he seems to back down more easily. Buttercup got spayed last week. Guess we'll see if these make a difference.

 

[2BullyMama]

Thanks for sharing your experience! I see the same thing with staring. We got Winston neutered a few weeks ago and he seems to back down more easily. Buttercup got spayed last week. Guess we'll see if these make a difference.

Good luck... I hope this works out fir you all

 

[Isabel and Jackson]

@minibull Yes, the neutering calmed Jackson down as well after a few months, he trusts and listens to me better so that I do not need to have him on a leash when they are around, he will back down with a snap of a finger now. Consistency is important, keep at it & good luck!

Another situation to keep in mind with these dogs: Jackson also has struggled with allergies and skin conditions his entire life, we are one month into a new treatment plan (fish oil, allergy meds & royal canin food) and he has been a much happier dog! I've learned that aggression comes from frustration sometimes and in his case, it was physical frustration (always itching, eyes watering, feet licking, yeast growing everywhere!) Since we've corrected his physical pain or frustration, he's been much easier to mold into a wonderful dog! Izzy on the other hand is just an old girl who doesn't like dogs bigger than her!

 

[nubonics]

I am currently experiencing this problem with Curly and our newest addition. Curly is the youngest of our three dogs and when our 4th came into the picture, curly suddenly became completely aggressive towards the new pup, to a fight that result in the pups broken arm. There were several other things going on in my household when all heck broke out (I was traveling so it caused imbalance of ranks / our cat, curly's closest friend was very sick , etc) so it's been hard to pinpoint Curlys sudden change.

However, I think It seems to be jealously and change of energy sets curly off. The other day curly was in our fenced in yard and Jawnie (the pup) was outside of our yard. A woman came up to Jawnie to pet him and Curly ran up to the fence with a look of death in his eyes and would not take his eyes off Jawnie. I tried to snap curly out of it but Curly was definitely did not like that Jawnie was getting attention. The woman asked if she could pet curly to make him feel better (she I guess saw the jealousy too) and I told her no because that would just encourage Curlys behavior. Fortunately she got it. But now that I kind of see what sets curly off I can start having the trainer work with him on this.

Anyhow, we have not re-integrated Jawnie back with the pack yet because he is still healing from the broken arm but when we do our plan is quite extreme in order to re-integrate them (involves me moving to my parents with my other 2 dogs while my husband keeps curly and only introducing them again on neutral grounds).

If reintegration isn't possible, we are planning to rehome our pup, which does make us a bit sad but in the long run it is in the best interest of Jawnie's well being physically and psychologically... If you do need to rehome just know that you are doing what is right for the well being of your bully. Good luck with everything!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MrsK25]

So since we started our efforts Buttercup's jealousy and fight-picking have only worsened. They had two particularly bad fights this weekend and we had to visit the vet to treat a bite abscess. Now they are unable to even be in the same room without Buttercup starting her stiffen-up-and-growl routine. We're keeping them separate now as I'm afraid of what more could happen.

So we are looking to re-home sweet Winston. We're putting out feelers in our area but I will likely also post him on this site. I'm eager to get him into the right place before he sustains any further physical or emotional scars from his experience with us. Vet told us it would take a few months before spaying and neutering begin to help -- and now that they've established a negative pattern it might persist. I don't think I can keep them both safe for two more months now that Buttercup is so riled up.

I feel just terrible that we couldn't give him a wonderful home and also feel it's unfair to both of them to try to keep them together when they clearly don't get along.

Wow - I'm so sorry to hear you're going through this. What's crazy is that we had this exact same situation with our two dogs. We adopted them both at the same time and they were supposedly a bonded pair - slept together, ate together, played together...everything. About a month after we had them home the male dog stole a treat from our female dog and she let loose on him. After this they kept getting into fight after fight until we ended up with one very very very scared male dog and one extremely aggressive female. They couldn't be in the same room together and we had to keep one crated at all times. It was to the point that the male was so scared that he tried to tip his crate over and into a baby gate just to get to the female. After two weeks of this and no subsiding we knew we either had to get help or re-home one of the dogs.

We decided to see a behaviorist at Tufts University vet clinic and they essentially told us it could take years to get them back to being ok with one another and that it was happening because of a 'sibling rivalry' scenario where both dogs wanted to be the pack leader. What she told us is that we had to figure out who would make the better leader and treat that dog as the leader of the two while still maintaining that the humans were the ultimate pack leaders. She recommended choosing the female dog because the male had a lot of anxiety and wasn't stable mentally at the time. Then, we were directed to only give them attention, food, toys, etc. if they first followed a command (I believe this is the same thing you have been directed to do). This seemed only to help when they weren't together, but once they saw each other they couldn't be broken up.

What ultimately helped us get over the hump was by following the routine, individually, of making the dog follow a command before rewarding with a treat, attention, etc. and very very very slowly reintroducing them to each other. I started by keeping one dog crated with the other one on leash, walking the leashed dog near the crate, making her sit (which is where the commands came into play), give me her full attention, and then feeding her treats. I did this over and over and over again and reversed the roles so each dog had turns getting treats. The treat in my hand would distract both dogs enough that neither would growl and both would pay attention to me. It took about a month of this before I could separate them by a baby gate and do the same routine. After about another month behind a baby gate with that routine, i began leashing one dog safely at one end of the room, leashing the other and leading it very very slowly, feeding treats along the way, towards the other dog. I would try to keep both dogs eyes on me and on the prize (treat). I followed this routine for about two months and eventually I was able to, very carefully and with harnesses that had handles, do this same thing but without the leashes. We luckily had safe spots to leash each dog while we were home so they could be in the same room and have to deal with the presence of the other. For a long time we would hear growls from each if they even looked at each other wrong. It seriously took about 8 months all together to get them in the same room, ok with each other, sitting on separate beds, and not spontaneously fighting.

After I was able to get them into the same room together with no growling or fighting I was able to let them feel out their own boundaries - this took a lot of dedication and very vigilant watching of their body language. I would allow them to sit near each other, but if either one got tense, I would command one or the other to go back to their own spot. Very slowly they re-learned that the other was not going to just snap and regained trust in one another enough that they began to snuggle, clean each other, and eat together again. It took about a year to get them to that point.

It's been almost another year now and we still cannot give the female direct attention if the male is too close nearby (the same room is ok, but within 10 feet or so she gets crazy). It's the exact scenario you described where it happens when you're giving the dog attention and she sees the other dog and gets crazy. Neither dog is allowed on the sofa unless specifically directed and when we give direct attention we make sure her face is facing us and if it isn't we immediately stop giving her attention. Usually what happens now is she re-directs her attention so everything is ok. Honestly, I don't think this will ever change, but because we have learned her body language we are able to stop any fights from happening before the first growl. It just takes lots of time and a lot of persistence to get to this point.

I wish you the best of luck and I hope you are able to find a home for your pup or able to find a way for them to live harmoniously. It's not easy at all and my heart really goes out to you.