oscarmayer

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[MENTION=15364]oscarmayer[/MENTION] do you think it's likely that even when we are able to get them to stop, it will always re-arise like this? Is there nothing we can do to make them get along? The trainer seemed so confident that territorial aggression can be trained away.
Until you isolate and manage the triggers(all of them), there will be conflict. You said yourself that new things seem to set them off, the list of triggers seems to be growing. I hope I'm completely wrong about this...I've been wrong before. This behavior just seems so classic to me. I applaud your effort. If things work out it's because you have fought long and hard for it. If things don't work out it won't be because you didn't. Give the trainer all the time they need...until it's obvious that no progress is being made.
 

Hankster

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I really dont have much input, but the more i read, the more it seems that it could very well be possible to fix this.. but not until you can get that hubs of yours to cool his roll!!! I really think he's adding hugely (though i dont blame him one bit as it's a horribly fearful thing to watch this with your beloved dogs) Being Pack leader is one thing, but i sort of see he's really causing them to change their 'play' attitude, into oh crap, dads upset mabie i need to take care of something quick... I had a short lesson (from all these here) myself as i was a mushpot to my boy and nothing but do do do for him. He needed me to be LEADER, but i didnt understand until he got agressive 2x.. And both times, it was because i freeked out and he didnt know what to do but react.. Had to change some of that up, keep my cool with it all, and all is well now, and he is a happier boy knowing im going in the lead. Anyway, I wish you all the luck in the world. Looking forward to hearing what the trainer helps you guys with. Sadly, i admit, it was ME that needed to change. Issues can happen to us all, but we can exacerbate the issue if we dont know how to follow up from there .. hope i made ANY sense ;)
 

2BullyMama

I'm not OCD....now who moved my bulldog?
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I really dont have much input, but the more i read, the more it seems that it could very well be possible to fix this.. but not until you can get that hubs of yours to cool his roll!!! I really think he's adding hugely (though i dont blame him one bit as it's a horribly fearful thing to watch this with your beloved dogs) Being Pack leader is one thing, but i sort of see he's really causing them to change their 'play' attitude, into oh crap, dads upset mabie i need to take care of something quick... I had a short lesson (from all these here) myself as i was a mushpot to my boy and nothing but do do do for him. He needed me to be LEADER, but i didnt understand until he got agressive 2x.. And both times, it was because i freeked out and he didnt know what to do but react.. Had to change some of that up, keep my cool with it all, and all is well now, and he is a happier boy knowing im going in the lead. Anyway, I wish you all the luck in the world. Looking forward to hearing what the trainer helps you guys with. Sadly, i admit, it was ME that needed to change. Issues can happen to us all, but we can exacerbate the issue if we dont know how to follow up from there .. hope i made ANY sense ;)

:up:


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Dollys Owner

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I've talked to just about every family member and close friend that we have....everyone already has dogs or is not in the position to take her. My mom would love to take her, but she's got a tiny female chihuahua. I wouldn't feel confident sending Josie to another house where there are other dogs & could potentially end up in the same boat. I am at a loss for what to do. Neither of our dogs have bitten us DIRECTLY at all...but when you go sticking your hands down in between their faces to break them up, I guess injuries are bound to happen. My only hope was to find a local rescue willing to take her, because I would trust that they could find her a safe home. I'm terrified of trying to re-home her to strangers myself. I'm just totally heart broken with the whole situation. The idea of getting rid of her makes me feel like I'm giving up on her- and after the hard life she's already had, I can barely stand the thought.
[MENTION=15364]oscarmayer[/MENTION] do you think it's likely that even when we are able to get them to stop, it will always re-arise like this? Is there nothing we can do to make them get along? The trainer seemed so confident that territorial aggression can be trained away.

I think you should get rid of Josie, but if you do keep her, make sure you never leave the two of them in your house in the care of other people unless they are separated by a cage or in different parts of the house. If you go away on vacation, house them in 2 separate households.
 
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betterxthanxnew

betterxthanxnew

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I really dont have much input, but the more i read, the more it seems that it could very well be possible to fix this.. but not until you can get that hubs of yours to cool his roll!!! I really think he's adding hugely (though i dont blame him one bit as it's a horribly fearful thing to watch this with your beloved dogs) Being Pack leader is one thing, but i sort of see he's really causing them to change their 'play' attitude, into oh crap, dads upset mabie i need to take care of something quick... I had a short lesson (from all these here) myself as i was a mushpot to my boy and nothing but do do do for him. He needed me to be LEADER, but i didnt understand until he got agressive 2x.. And both times, it was because i freeked out and he didnt know what to do but react.. Had to change some of that up, keep my cool with it all, and all is well now, and he is a happier boy knowing im going in the lead. Anyway, I wish you all the luck in the world. Looking forward to hearing what the trainer helps you guys with. Sadly, i admit, it was ME that needed to change. Issues can happen to us all, but we can exacerbate the issue if we dont know how to follow up from there .. hope i made ANY sense ;)
[MENTION=16280]Hankster[/MENTION] You made A LOT of sense. I was on the phone with a new trainer for over an hour yesterday and I do think that a HUGE part of the problem is with us & our leadership abilities. I have the new trainer coming tomorrow evening at 6pm for a 3 hour session. If all goes well we are registering for the 6 month program- where the trainer will continue to come out at no cost for up to 6 months to readdress any issues. Our previous trainer focused on using a prong collar. She was probably only at our home 45 minutes, showed us how to use the collars & when to use them, and that was it. We had them wear the collars for about 2 weeks, and after that we had a peaceful 2.5 months until my parents came to town. I don't fully understand what made them regress unless it was all of the people in the home- we were distracted & not focused, they were vying for everyone's attention, and of course it was hard to get everyone to follow RULES with the dogs. After my parents left we attempted to use the collars again to regain control & they got into that whopper of a fight where Josie's teeth were literally stuck in the links of Effie's prong collar & we couldn't get them apart. That scared the YOU KNOW WHAT out of me. Yesterday I called our original trainer back & she was talking about potentially moving onto E-collars. The more and more I read about those the more scared I got. I get using prong collars/e-collars for obedience. But to use them on dogs that are being aggressive with one another seems counter-intuitive. Anyway...long story short, I spent a good chunk of my day yesterday researching trainers & programs. I'm trying to remain hopeful & confident with the new trainer that is coming on Friday. He does not recommend the use of collars in this situation. We are going to start at square one with obedience & removing/addressing actual stressors in our dogs lives. He said that he will be honest if he thinks that Josie needs to be re-homed, but he said he hasn't had 1 client yet that's had to do that (now this could be just excellent marketing, LOL, but it gives me something to hold onto!)

On another note, I implemented some of the pack leader strategies that the trainer talked to me about on the phone yesterday, along with heavily enforcing Nothing in Life is Free. We also went on a 45 minute pack walk. They both seemed so calm & peaceful for the rest of the evening. I'm grateful for that. This is going to take a lot of time & energy, but they're worth it.

I will keep you all posted, and thank you again for your compassion & always being there for advice & allowing a good vent of frustration!
 
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betterxthanxnew

betterxthanxnew

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[MENTION=16884]Dollys Owner[/MENTION] No we definitely wouldn't be leaving them with anyone anyway- when we travel they come with us. We've never boarded either of them. I don't really have anyone that I would trust to watch them even when they are behaving, so they would have to be professionally boarded if it suddenly became a necessity. I appreciate you're input though so much, I hope and pray we can prevent re-homing Josie, but I understand that we may not have a choice in the long run. I just want to feel as though I've truly tried everything & that I've followed through.
 

Hankster

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[MENTION=16280]Hankster[/MENTION] You made A LOT of sense. I was on the phone with a new trainer for over an hour yesterday and I do think that a HUGE part of the problem is with us & our leadership abilities. I have the new trainer coming tomorrow evening at 6pm for a 3 hour session. If all goes well we are registering for the 6 month program- where the trainer will continue to come out at no cost for up to 6 months to readdress any issues. Our previous trainer focused on using a prong collar. She was probably only at our home 45 minutes, showed us how to use the collars & when to use them, and that was it. We had them wear the collars for about 2 weeks, and after that we had a peaceful 2.5 months until my parents came to town. I don't fully understand what made them regress unless it was all of the people in the home- we were distracted & not focused, they were vying for everyone's attention, and of course it was hard to get everyone to follow RULES with the dogs. After my parents left we attempted to use the collars again to regain control & they got into that whopper of a fight where Josie's teeth were literally stuck in the links of Effie's prong collar & we couldn't get them apart. That scared the YOU KNOW WHAT out of me. Yesterday I called our original trainer back & she was talking about potentially moving onto E-collars. The more and more I read about those the more scared I got. I get using prong collars/e-collars for obedience. But to use them on dogs that are being aggressive with one another seems counter-intuitive. Anyway...long story short, I spent a good chunk of my day yesterday researching trainers & programs. I'm trying to remain hopeful & confident with the new trainer that is coming on Friday. He does not recommend the use of collars in this situation. We are going to start at square one with obedience & removing/addressing actual stressors in our dogs lives. He said that he will be honest if he thinks that Josie needs to be re-homed, but he said he hasn't had 1 client yet that's had to do that (now this could be just excellent marketing, LOL, but it gives me something to hold onto!)

On another note, I implemented some of the pack leader strategies that the trainer talked to me about on the phone yesterday, along with heavily enforcing Nothing in Life is Free. We also went on a 45 minute pack walk. They both seemed so calm & peaceful for the rest of the evening. I'm grateful for that. This is going to take a lot of time & energy, but they're worth it.

I will keep you all posted, and thank you again for your compassion & always being there for advice & allowing a good vent of frustration!

You are great bulldog parents and giving so much to them i hope it works out for you,,, so much i hope that ;) I also hope that if it doesnt, that you will you will see you can trust this trainer so well that you will find peace in any other decision you may need to make. Im sure the best for ALL will happen. Looking forward to hearing the process :)
 

2BullyMama

I'm not OCD....now who moved my bulldog?
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[MENTION=16280]Hankster[/MENTION] You made A LOT of sense. I was on the phone with a new trainer for over an hour yesterday and I do think that a HUGE part of the problem is with us & our leadership abilities. I have the new trainer coming tomorrow evening at 6pm for a 3 hour session. If all goes well we are registering for the 6 month program- where the trainer will continue to come out at no cost for up to 6 months to readdress any issues. Our previous trainer focused on using a prong collar. She was probably only at our home 45 minutes, showed us how to use the collars & when to use them, and that was it. We had them wear the collars for about 2 weeks, and after that we had a peaceful 2.5 months until my parents came to town. I don't fully understand what made them regress unless it was all of the people in the home- we were distracted & not focused, they were vying for everyone's attention, and of course it was hard to get everyone to follow RULES with the dogs. After my parents left we attempted to use the collars again to regain control & they got into that whopper of a fight where Josie's teeth were literally stuck in the links of Effie's prong collar & we couldn't get them apart. That scared the YOU KNOW WHAT out of me. Yesterday I called our original trainer back & she was talking about potentially moving onto E-collars. The more and more I read about those the more scared I got. I get using prong collars/e-collars for obedience. But to use them on dogs that are being aggressive with one another seems counter-intuitive. Anyway...long story short, I spent a good chunk of my day yesterday researching trainers & programs. I'm trying to remain hopeful & confident with the new trainer that is coming on Friday. He does not recommend the use of collars in this situation. We are going to start at square one with obedience & removing/addressing actual stressors in our dogs lives. He said that he will be honest if he thinks that Josie needs to be re-homed, but he said he hasn't had 1 client yet that's had to do that (now this could be just excellent marketing, LOL, but it gives me something to hold onto!)

On another note, I implemented some of the pack leader strategies that the trainer talked to me about on the phone yesterday, along with heavily enforcing Nothing in Life is Free. We also went on a 45 minute pack walk. They both seemed so calm & peaceful for the rest of the evening. I'm grateful for that. This is going to take a lot of time & energy, but they're worth it.

I will keep you all posted, and thank you again for your compassion & always being there for advice & allowing a good vent of frustration!

I love your dedication and drive to keep your family intact--- sending lots of positive thoughts !! (Hugs)


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1Chumly

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This all sounds so familiar and I am really sorry you are going through this. We went through the same thing and I am a firm believer of female on female aggression. There is nothing worse and they can be dedicated to seriously hurting the other dog, and holding grudges. We sent our dogs to boot camp, University behavior dept, and trainer. We ended up with two well trained dogs....except when they were fighting and half the time we never knew what set them off. It would happen out of the blue. After too many trips to the ER we gave one up before one ended up dead. It was heartbreaking but for ALL concerned, the best thing to do.

If you do have to eventually rehome, do not feel guilty. It is no way to live walking on eggshells all the time. I do recommend having a baby gate at hand, it was the one thing that I could ram, and I do mean ram, between them when they were fighting and keep them separated until I could herd them into their crates.

Good luck.
 

Dollys Owner

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[MENTION=16884]Dollys Owner[/MENTION] No we definitely wouldn't be leaving them with anyone anyway- when we travel they come with us. We've never boarded either of them. I don't really have anyone that I would trust to watch them even when they are behaving, so they would have to be professionally boarded if it suddenly became a necessity. I appreciate you're input though so much, I hope and pray we can prevent re-homing Josie, but I understand that we may not have a choice in the long run. I just want to feel as though I've truly tried everything & that I've followed through.

I'm just worried that one day that even if one dog doesn't seriously injure the other, someone will unintentionally get injured while stopping a fight, and you could end up with having get one of the dogs destroyed, or a lawsuit. I think you seriously should consider rehoming the dog and do everyone a favour. I understand how hard that is, but I went through the same thing with my 2 females, and it's the right thing to do.
 

Dollys Owner

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[MENTION=2894]2BullyMama[/MENTION] We are going to try our very best. I actually took them for a good walk earlier this week & we had zero issues with them that evening. They were both tuckered out. They walked side by side, as good as could be. We don't do it nearly often enough & I hope that a decent evening walk together will help. They used to love playing with one another, and would rough house and wrestle all over the place. For whatever reason, after their first fight, my husband wouldn't let them play. Every time they start to rough house he breaks them up. Even though the first fight was actually over a bone- nothing else. I've told him time and time again that he needs to let them play. But he says that it makes him nervous, so he jumps up yelling NO and pushes them away from each other. Anytime they even go near one another he does this now. I can't help but think it's adding to the issue- that they're sensing the fear. They still bathe one another, they still occasionally try to play, they still sleep together. I want to believe so badly that we can fix this.

As far as out in public they get along with other dogs & each other beautifully. They love going to the dog park & playing with other dogs. From the outside looking in, you'd have no clue that they are the way they are at home. When we are travelling- which we do often because I have no family living in the immediate area- they are angels. They get along with dogs at my parents house, my siblings home, my aunts home. They get along with each other really well at the hotels. The trainer said that this is very typical in territorial aggression. She said that when they aren't in their territory all of the fear & aggression goes away....

I disagree with what the trainer said. My two dogs fought each other at someone else's house too.
 

Cbrugs

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I'm just worried that one day that even if one dog doesn't seriously injure the other, someone will unintentionally get injured while stopping a fight, and you could end up with having get one of the dogs destroyed, or a lawsuit. I think you seriously should consider rehoming the dog and do everyone a favour. I understand how hard that is, but I went through the same thing with my 2 females, and it's the right thing to do.

I disagree with what the trainer said. My two dogs fought each other at someone else's house too.

I think every situation is different and maybe there is a possibility that with the right training, Josie and Effie can co-exist.
 

Lalaloopsie

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I think what your husband does is right, keeping close eye on them and even stopping them from playing. Many people think that dogs must enjoy life and give them more freedom, but they are like children and need guidance. Actually, you have to make choices for dogs what to do now or later, as they can not themselves. Dog without guidance feels lost and tries to test the borders. In my understanding dogs must know that we, people are leaders of the pack and they must look at us all the time and ask with their eyes “mom, am I doing right thing?”. Not that I want dog to be a slave, but they are naturally much happier if they have boundaries and purpose- to obey and make their mom or dad happy. That’s why I think if you give them more stimulation like your husband does - gives them orders to stop doing something, they distract from fighting and concentrate on obeying his orders. Bulldogs are intelligent dogs and they need intellectual stimulation, otherwise they are bored and can also attack each other because of boredom. May be try to learn with them some new tricks, like playing dead or sitting on their butt with front paws up.
Taking them for longer walks is a brilliant idea and will always work. Bullies are lazy bones, but need to spend their energy.
I think that you should keep them busy, like teach them tricks (it’s like school for children), take them for long walks when possible to spend their energy and stop their attempts to fight “with great vengeance and furious anger”:)
but if you make them tired, they will probably have no energy to fight:)
 

ABEBD

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By many names depending on the situation?
Hi,
There are lots of posts on the subject. Some I agree with and many I don't. To avoid and negativity, my comments are limited.

Behavior modification takes times, patience, consistency and understanding of what the actual issue is. I agree this will take a professional to fix.
 

helsonwheels

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To avoid and negativity, my comments are limited. Behavior modification takes times, patience, consistency and understanding of what the actual issue is. I agree this will take a professional to fix.

BANG ON dear!!! I TRY to limit my comments. Sooooooooooo damm hard as im the "speak your mind". Getting better as I age lollll but so true, patience, consistency, understanding the issue, all household HAS to be on the same page. I had a bone fight yesterday. Nyala attacked Duke. She usually will growl and he keeps his distance and im usually outside keeping my eye out even though they are 30ft apart. Someone brought the bones in and I was in the kitchen and I thought he was going to keep an eye out. Wasnt fast enough. So voilà, that was why the fight broke. Yup...got to figure out the situation!
 

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