Raw feeding - How to start

[kanzy]

Hello all and cheers from Portugal.

I've adopted an English bulldog (named Oscar) which is currently aged 6 months.

Besides a cherry eye problem, which is already solved (unfortunately when I adopted him the case was serious which led to slightly dropped eyelids), he is healthy and happy, however, I'm not really happy with his stools, as I think there might be a problem.

I've already tried different kibbles, but the stool is always slightly watery and really really stinky.

So, after reading the forum, I've decided to try raw feeding!

Of course, as a first time dog owner (I've had dogs in the family before, but I was a child) and first time future raw feeder, I want to have all the information possible to make sure my pup is happy and healthy!

I would really appreciate if you could help with some questions!

1 - Which protein should I start with? (I've noticed some contradictions regarding chicken)
2 - Is there any place where I can check like a recommended weekly/monthly menu and follow that? (I'm a little bit lost in between all the ingredients everyone suggests)
3 - I am thinking about preparing the food weekly and freeze it. Should I give it to him frozen or should I defrost it first?
4 - Veggies? which ones are the best to start with? should they be cooked and transformed in puree?
5 - Is it too costly to raw feed? (it's not that I do mind if the cost is higher than dry foods, but there's a limit to everyone's wallet )

Thank you very much in advance!

 

[Dollys Owner]

Hello all and cheers from Portugal.

I've adopted an English bulldog (named Oscar) which is currently aged 6 months.

Besides a cherry eye problem, which is already solved (unfortunately when I adopted him the case was serious which led to slightly dropped eyelids), he is healthy and happy, however, I'm not really happy with his stools, as I think there might be a problem.

I've already tried different kibbles, but the stool is always slightly watery and really really stinky.

So, after reading the forum, I've decided to try raw feeding!

Of course, as a first time dog owner (I've had dogs in the family before, but I was a child) and first time future raw feeder, I want to have all the information possible to make sure my pup is happy and healthy!

I would really appreciate if you could help with some questions!

1 - Which protein should I start with? (I've noticed some contradictions regarding chicken)
Duck and/or Rabbit

2 - Is there any place where I can check like a recommended weekly/monthly menu and follow that? (I'm a little bit lost in between all the ingredients everyone suggests)
If you buy a complete dinner formula you don't need anything extra, if you buy the pure muscle meat/organs/bones then you will need to add sea kelp and fish oil and steamed vegetables +/- fruit . Buy the complete dinner formula to start with for simplicity.
3 - I am thinking about preparing the food weekly and freeze it. Should I give it to him frozen or should I defrost it first?
It comes ground up and frozen, so partially thaw it up in refrigerator and cut it into sizes you need and refreeze
4 - Veggies? which ones are the best to start with? should they be cooked and transformed in puree?
If you don't buy complete formula then it's best steamed and transformed into puree for maximal absorption. I buy both complete and pure so I don't bother pureeing the vegetables. Any vegetables are good, but avoid onions,rhubarb
5 - Is it too costly to raw feed? (it's not that I do mind if the cost is higher than dry foods, but there's a limit to everyone's wallet )
In Canada and USA it's cheaper than premium dog kibble or dehydrated raw if you buy from local raw food producer, not sure about Portugal. But you do need freezer space.

Thank you very much in advance!

 

[kanzy]

Hello all and cheers from Portugal.

I've adopted an English bulldog (named Oscar) which is currently aged 6 months.

Besides a cherry eye problem, which is already solved (unfortunately when I adopted him the case was serious which led to slightly dropped eyelids), he is healthy and happy, however, I'm not really happy with his stools, as I think there might be a problem.

I've already tried different kibbles, but the stool is always slightly watery and really really stinky.

So, after reading the forum, I've decided to try raw feeding!

Of course, as a first time dog owner (I've had dogs in the family before, but I was a child) and first time future raw feeder, I want to have all the information possible to make sure my pup is happy and healthy!

I would really appreciate if you could help with some questions!

1 - Which protein should I start with? (I've noticed some contradictions regarding chicken)
Duck and/or Rabbit

2 - Is there any place where I can check like a recommended weekly/monthly menu and follow that? (I'm a little bit lost in between all the ingredients everyone suggests)
If you buy a complete dinner formula you don't need anything extra, if you buy the pure muscle meat/organs/bones then you will need to add sea kelp and fish oil and steamed vegetables +/- fruit . Buy the complete dinner formula to start with for simplicity.
3 - I am thinking about preparing the food weekly and freeze it. Should I give it to him frozen or should I defrost it first?
It comes ground up and frozen, so partially thaw it up in refrigerator and cut it into sizes you need and refreeze
4 - Veggies? which ones are the best to start with? should they be cooked and transformed in puree?
If you don't buy complete formula then it's best steamed and transformed into puree for maximal absorption. I buy both complete and pure so I don't bother pureeing the vegetables. Any vegetables are good, but avoid onions,rhubarb
5 - Is it too costly to raw feed? (it's not that I do mind if the cost is higher than dry foods, but there's a limit to everyone's wallet )
In Canada and USA it's cheaper than premium dog kibble or dehydrated raw if you buy from local raw food producer, not sure about Portugal. But you do need freezer space.

Thank you very much in advance!

Thank you for your help.

I've been searching and we don't have many options here for complete dinner formulas (the ones we have are really expensive), so I was thinking of doing it myself, thus I wanted to check if there are weekly/monthly menus available out there.

While using duck/rabbit, should I give them the different proteins mixed or a different protein per day/meal?

 

[Cbrugs]

I use commercial frozen raw foods that are already balanced and while more expensive than doing it myself, it's easy and I don't want to do the work.

Here is a resource guide on feeding raw. https://perfectlyrawsome.com/raw-feeding-dog-guides/

Generally, you would want to start with 1 protein at a time to ensure there are no allergies or other issues. Do that for about a month each protein. Once you get all the proteins figured out, you can start mixing them or doing 1 per day, 1 per week, etc. Each meal does not have to be perfectly balanced as it balances out over time. I usually will do 2 or 3 proteins over a 2 week period. Also with feeding raw, it is usually recommended to rotate between at least 3 proteins to be nutritionally balanced as each protein has different nutritional benefits.

Good luck!

 

[kanzy]

I use commercial frozen raw foods that are already balanced and while more expensive than doing it myself, it's easy and I don't want to do the work.

Here is a resource guide on feeding raw. https://perfectlyrawsome.com/raw-feeding-dog-guides/

Generally, you would want to start with 1 protein at a time to ensure there are no allergies or other issues. Do that for about a month each protein. Once you get all the proteins figured out, you can start mixing them or doing 1 per day, 1 per week, etc. Each meal does not have to be perfectly balanced as it balances out over time. I usually will do 2 or 3 proteins over a 2 week period. Also with feeding raw, it is usually recommended to rotate between at least 3 proteins to be nutritionally balanced as each protein as each protein has different protein.

Good luck!

Thank you for the tips!

Would this work as a monthly menu?

760g Meal Per day
Chicken Muscle Meat 70% 532g
Chicken Feet/Neck 10% 76g
Sweet Potato/ Red bellpepper /Broccoli 7% 53,2g
chicken heart 5% 38g
beef liver 5% 38g
Sunflower/Pumpkin seeds 2% 15,2g
Watermelon/Kiwi/apricot/berries 1% 7,6g

My idea is to change the veggies, fruits and seed per meal - I put chicken but I was thinking of starting with duck

Also, "my stomach is weak" so I will have trouble watching him eat liver and feet and stuff like that. Would there be a problem if I minced the bones, meat and organs?

 

[Dollys Owner]

Thank you for the tips!

Would this work as a monthly menu?

760g Meal Per day
Chicken Muscle Meat 70% 532g
Chicken Feet/Neck 10% 76g
Sweet Potato/ Red bellpepper /Broccoli 7% 53,2g
chicken heart 5% 38g
beef liver 5% 38g
Sunflower/Pumpkin seeds 2% 15,2g
Watermelon/Kiwi/apricot/berries 1% 7,6g

My idea is to change the veggies, fruits and seed per meal - I put chicken but I was thinking of starting with duck

Also, "my stomach is weak" so I will have trouble watching him eat liver and feet and stuff like that. Would there be a problem if I minced the bones, meat and organs?

Hi, I looked at the guide quoted by cbrugs , and ratios for puppies are a bit different:

The recommended guidelines for a Prey Model diet for a puppy is 64-69% muscle meat, 17% raw edible bone, 7% liver, 7% other secreting organs, and 0-5% animal based fiber. Franken Prey is another term used for raw feeders who follow PMR ratio guidelines, but do not feed whole, intact prey animals.

The recommended guidelines for a BARF diet for puppies consists of 58% muscle meat, 17% raw edible bone, 7% vegetables, 7% liver, 7% other secreting organ, 3% seeds or nuts, and 1% fruit.

Seeds and nuts must be pre-soaked and ground for feeding.

I would recommend mincing everything together and then freezing in individual portions

Here's suggested amounts from the article for a 6 month old 10.5 kg dog:

6 Months Old
Large Breed
10.5 Kilograms
1000 Daily Calories
Estimated Caloric Need

630g Intake
Estimated Daily Intake

Calculate ratio guidelines in metric units:

Puppy PMR Ratios
630 x 0.69 = 434.7g muscle meat
630 x 0.17 = 107.1g edible bone
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g liver
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g other organ
Puppy BARF Ratios
630 x 0.58 = 365.4g muscle meat
630 x 0.17 = 107.1g edible bone
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g liver
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g other organ
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g vegetables
630 x 0.03 = 18.9g seeds/nuts
630 x 0.01 = 6.3g fruit

 

[kanzy]

Hi, I looked at the guide quoted by cbrugs , and ratios for puppies are a bit different:

The recommended guidelines for a Prey Model diet for a puppy is 64-69% muscle meat, 17% raw edible bone, 7% liver, 7% other secreting organs, and 0-5% animal based fiber. Franken Prey is another term used for raw feeders who follow PMR ratio guidelines, but do not feed whole, intact prey animals.

The recommended guidelines for a BARF diet for puppies consists of 58% muscle meat, 17% raw edible bone, 7% vegetables, 7% liver, 7% other secreting organ, 3% seeds or nuts, and 1% fruit.

Seeds and nuts must be pre-soaked and ground for feeding.

I would recommend mincing everything together and then freezing in individual portions

Here's suggested amounts from the article for a 6 month old 10.5 kg dog:

6 Months Old
Large Breed
10.5 Kilograms
1000 Daily Calories
Estimated Caloric Need

630g Intake
Estimated Daily Intake

Calculate ratio guidelines in metric units:

Puppy PMR Ratios
630 x 0.69 = 434.7g muscle meat
630 x 0.17 = 107.1g edible bone
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g liver
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g other organ
Puppy BARF Ratios
630 x 0.58 = 365.4g muscle meat
630 x 0.17 = 107.1g edible bone
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g liver
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g other organ
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g vegetables
630 x 0.03 = 18.9g seeds/nuts
630 x 0.01 = 6.3g fruit

OH many thanks, I didn't notice when I was doing the calculations I was checking the adult ratios and not puppy (how dumb of me )

So it means if I stick with this ratios everything will be fine?
Puppy BARF Ratios
630 x 0.58 = 365.4g muscle meat
630 x 0.17 = 107.1g edible bone
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g liver
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g other organ
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g vegetables
630 x 0.03 = 18.9g seeds/nuts
630 x 0.01 = 6.3g fruit

Also, is there a need for supplements with these ratios?

I've also noticed it is good to feed 2 raw eggs per week - is it correct?

Many thanks to everyone and sorry for so many questions (first-time owner, especially when all your life you heard raw food wasn't good for dogs, isn't easy!)

 

[helsonwheels]

OH many thanks, I didn't notice when I was doing the calculations I was checking the adult ratios and not puppy (how dumb of me )

So it means if I stick with this ratios everything will be fine?
Puppy BARF Ratios
630 x 0.58 = 365.4g muscle meat
630 x 0.17 = 107.1g edible bone
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g liver
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g other organ
630 x 0.07 = 44.1g vegetables
630 x 0.03 = 18.9g seeds/nuts
630 x 0.01 = 6.3g fruit

Also, is there a need for supplements with these ratios?

I've also noticed it is good to feed 2 raw eggs per week - is it correct?

Many thanks to everyone and sorry for so many questions (first-time owner, especially when all your life you heard raw food wasn't good for dogs, isn't easy!)

If you’re feeding only balanced raw diet you don’t need supplements. No need to over supplement your dog. Everything is in raw. Only thing I would add every other day is get some green smelly tripe at the pet store in the freezers. It’s green n stinks. That will boost even more the immune system...

https://dogsfirst.ie/raw-faq/raw-diet-for-dogs/

https://hare-today.com/raw_food_ratio_calculator

https://www.allthebestpetcare.com/pet-nutrition/home-prepared-meals-for-dogs-and-cats/

https://www.dogtipper.com/recipes/2013/10/make-eggshell-calcium-dog.html

http://www.englishbulldognews.com/forums/your-bulldog-s-health/57090-holistic-approach.html

 

[anatess]

Here's my opinion on the matter. I have a dog turning 13 years old in August on Prey-Model Raw since she was 4 years old.

Keep. It. Simple.

Kibble feeding is scoop-into-a-bowl simple. You want to have the effort as close to that as possible. If you make raw feeding too complicated you will fail at it.

How my dogs started:
Initial Target Feeding Amount - 3% of adult body weight (you can determine this if you know the weight of your dog's parents, if you don't know his parents, then you can go with the standard EB weight of 50 lbs, giving 1 pound 8 ounces as the target food weight)
Prey-Model Raw - that means pure carnivore. 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other secreting organs.

Day 1: Total fast. Not even treats. Just water.
Week 1: Chicken (my dogs have been eating raw chicken for years without issue)
Why chicken? You can find it anywhere for cheap. It is 25% bone to meat ratio - a little more bony than the 10% bone of other small animals (I'll explain why this significant later). The bones are soft - good for training a dog to work at a bone. A dog needs time to learn to eat a bone. Usually his mother would teach it to him as he weans but if he's not had this experience he will have to learn it himself. Chicken has just the right amount of fat (not deficient like rabbit, not high like non-fowl). It has small organs.

So, week 1 is very easy - just buy one whole chicken, chop it up, and feed to the dog. Kibble-easy. I recommend starting with the bony parts of the chicken like the legs and the back and wings and neck. Expect the dog to have a transition period especially if he's kibble-fed previously (lots of fiber and very low moisture) which usually results in loose stools, so compensate with bony meals for the first couple days. Don't give the full 3% yet. Start slowly with just one chicken leg quarter or chicken wings which is less than a pound of food and work up to 1 pound 8 ounces slowly over the course of the week. Feed chicken organs with the last pieces of the whole chicken. Don't throw out the bloody juice that comes with the chicken, have the dog lap at it too.

Repeat the process for succeeding weeks until stools are acceptable. Then introduce a different meat source slowly to go with the chicken. Keep this cycle up until you've had at least 4 meat sources with the proper meat to bone to organs ratio and proper stools.

The thing with PMR is you're going to become an expert in Poopology:
White dusty poop - too much bone
Very dark, almost black poop - too much organ
Loose poop - add bone, reduce fat
Blood in poop - parasites
Big poop - ate something that's not meat - might have found your cereal box.

Meat sources - variety is important. Fat is important. Don't trim fat. Fish is a great source of omega-3 fats. Rabbit has so little fat your dog will die if you feed him only rabbit. Feed human grade but there are things like human grade tripe and chitterlings that is bleached and processed that it leaves very little nutrients in it so it's just a waste of money. Green tripe is disgusting to humans but dogs love it and it has tons of beneficial nutrients. If you're rich go grass-fed beef and goats and free-range fowl, etc. If you're not rich and can't grow your own farm or are not buddies with a farmer, just pick what you can afford at your town's butcher or grocery store.

Counting calories - too much trouble. Keep it simple. If your dog is getting skinny, increase food. If your dog is getting fat, decrease food. It's that simple.

Fast and Gorge - a good idea. My dogs eat at random times. There's no fixed "time to eat" schedule. I feed them when I'm ready to feed them not when they want me to feed them. I only feed once a day. I use frozen liver or frozen kidneys or pieces of gizzard or blood-ice (part of their daily food allowance) as training treats when my dog needed training. I haven't given them treats after they're done with training. Their treat is butt rubs. They love it. When I go out of town for the weekend and leave my dogs, I gorge them before I leave and they don't eat until I come home. Easy peasy. That way, the dog sitter doesn't have to worry about feeding the dog and the dogs are very lazy and sleep all day from having full stomachs.

Regorge - normal. It's fascinatingly disgusting. My dog will eat a large chunk, swallow it, throw it back up all slimey and gooey, and eat it back again. Completely normal. Bile is also fine. My dog would secrete bile thinking it's time to eat and when the food hasn't come yet, she'll throw up the bile.. sometime she'll lap the bile back up. Yeah... and she kisses me with those lips. UUUUGGGH.

Water - the amount of moisture in raw meat is very high. Dogs usually don't drink as much water when on PMR than when they were on kibble.

Vitamins and Minerals - If you're feeding organs and bloody secretions and variety of meat sources, chances are you are all covered here. Don't bother with being precise in the amounts of vitamins and minerals in the meat source. Keep it Simple. If you're worried about sufficient vitamins and minerals, give your dog supplements like dinovite or something for your peace of mind. If your brain is nagging you because you don't feel it is right that your dog is not eating vegetables, feed him vegetables for your peace of mind. Your peace of mind is critical to your success.

That's my brain dump for the day. Hope it helps.

 

[Dollys Owner]

[MENTION=2874]anatess[/MENTION] - a lot of good info there ! I think it's a bit harsh leaving your dogs without food for the weekend though. Some bullies get very bad bilious dry heaves when their stomach gets empty.

Also, I think it's a good idea if you want to balance your omega 3's to supplement with fish oil if you are feeding your dog raw food without any fish supplementation. Also, sea kelp makes a good multivitamin to balance things out, no need to buy vitamins. I know your dogs have lived a long time without that, but it's still beneficial to add those in. I add those to my dog's food and recently did a geriatric blood panel on my 10 year old dog, and everything was perfect.

 

[helsonwheels]

Here’s why I dumped all fish oils a while ago. The only oil I will use every other day is extra virgin olive oil or/and hemp oil

This article will explain it better than me lol

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/fish-oil-omega-3-dogs-safe/

 

[anatess]

@anatess - a lot of good info there ! I think it's a bit harsh leaving your dogs without food for the weekend though. Some bullies get very bad bilious dry heaves when their stomach gets empty.

Also, I think it's a good idea if you want to balance your omega 3's to supplement with fish oil if you are feeding your dog raw food without any fish supplementation. Also, sea kelp makes a good multivitamin to balance things out, no need to buy vitamins. I know your dogs have lived a long time without that, but it's still beneficial to add those in. I add those to my dog's food and recently did a geriatric blood panel on my 10 year old dog, and everything was perfect.

Everything depends on your individual dog but a gorge/fast period is an important part of raw-fed dog nutrition. The dog must have a period of time when his stomach is empty to focus on building antibodies. But, like any other dog advice - there are always the exception - for example, if you have a diabetic dog, he shouldn't be put on a fast, an elderly cachexic dog cannot fast. Puppies under 6 months shouldn't fast, or if the juvie is in its growth spurt stage.

My dogs can go on a fast from their gorge meal on Friday night to their normal meal on Sunday night without any issues. My dogs will sometimes spit out bile if they get consistent meal times for a few weeks and then the meal time changes. This is normal. We don't do consistent mealtimes normally.

 

[helsonwheels]

Everything depends on your individual dog but a gorge/fast period is an important part of raw-fed dog nutrition. The dog must have a period of time when his stomach is empty to focus on building antibodies. But, like any other dog advice - there are always the exception - for example, if you have a diabetic dog, he shouldn't be put on a fast, an elderly cachexic dog cannot fast. Puppies under 6 months shouldn't fast, or if the juvie is in its growth spurt stage.

My dogs can go on a fast from their gorge meal on Friday night to their normal meal on Sunday night without any issues. My dogs will sometimes spit out bile if they get consistent meal times for a few weeks and then the meal time changes. This is normal. We don't do consistent mealtimes normally.

In the wild they can go without eating for a day or so...

I’m intrigued the way you answered your posts. Can I ask what you do in life? You DONT have to say either. Totally understand if you don’t. You’re bang on...

 

[Dollys Owner]

Here’s why I dumped all fish oils a while ago. The only oil I will use every other day is extra virgin olive oil or/and hemp oil

This article will explain it better than me lol

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/fish-oil-omega-3-dogs-safe/

I don't think that article is too accurate with regards to mercury. In another article I found "Omega-3 supplements provide a safe way to obtain omega-3, as the mercury remains bound to the protein of the fish and is not concentrated into the oil. Fish oil can be distilled to high levels of purity and concentration of particular omega-3s (EPA or DHA)."

With regards to ocean radiation, the article could be accurate- I'm not 100% confident that eating fish oil, or Pacific ocean fish, is safe. I know my dog is less itchy when on fish oil, so I might consider next time I buy a bottle to get algae oil instead.

 

[anatess]

In the wild they can go without eating for a day or so...

I’m intrigued the way you answered your posts. Can I ask what you do in life? You DONT have to say either. Totally understand if you don’t. You’re bang on...

I'm a programmer. Filipino. English is my 3rd language so some people say I sound funny.