General Question Fighting Every Day

[cali baker]

For about the past 3 days Tate and Finn have literally been at each other's throats. I witnessed their most vicious fight on Saturday afternoon. We were sitting outside, Finn was playing with his Varsity Ball and Tate must've gotten too close to it b/c before I knew it they were on top of each other, rolling on the grass, and Finn had his mouth clenched onto the side of Tate's face and would not let go.

Usually when I yell or lift a large piece of furniture they will stop, but this time they didn't. I think the fight lasted a very long 2 minutes. I knew better to not try to separate them b/c I've done this before only to have gotten bit. I don't know how, but eventually they separated and i ran inside for the first aid kit (I was expecting a bloody mess). Thankfully, the damage was minor physically speaking. Tate was visibly shaken-up, and was trying to get away from Finn who was still following him and growling.

On Sunday and Monday, more fights but they were very brief. I thought these two would have "outgrown" the fighting as they're both 4yo but these incidents have made me discouraged and concerned.

It's obvious to me that Finn is the "dominant" male and I read somewhere that I need to make this known within our household so that Tate understands this; an example is to give Finn his food bowl first, for instance. And that I should not show sympathy towards Tate or give him any special treatment.
This made sense to me but is opposite of what I have been doing; I've been giving Tate's food first and I would give outward affection to Tate in front of Finn whenever a fight ensued. I'm understanding tho that this only creates more confusion within the "pecking order" and may encourage more fights b/c the boys are still trying to show who is dominant over the other.

Does this make sense and can anyone provide more insight for me?

 

[cali baker]

Also, does the fact that I crate Finn during the day but not Tate create more disharmony between the two of them? I'm thinking that Finn is resentful of this, maybe (or maybe this is just a human emotion that i'm projecting onto him).

 

[2BullyMama]

If Finn is the dominate one and you are doing everything with Tate first, has Tate accepted Finn as the alpha of the two of them? Does he follow Finn's lead? Have they not been getting as much exercise? Any signs of pain or illness with one or the other?

If you crate one, crate both... see if it helps level them out. As you know Banks was our dominate girl, but we did as you -- she got everything last.

 

[ddnene]

Gosh Henny, I'm so sorry to hear that the boys are still at it… I agree w/Christine advice above, maybe crating both of them will help. And the old advice that a tired dog is a well-behaved dog… I know it's hard because you work long hours. You need to find a way to break up these fights… have you ever used a whistle?!! I have heard that this will stop dogs in their tracks...

 

[1Chumly]

My cousin swears by shaking pepper on their noses, can't fight if they are sneezing. My fear would be getting it in their eyes. She had Rottweilers. Or the other one is throw a bucket of water on them or turn on the hose but of course that doesn't help if they are in the house. The one thing that I have used in the past (I had two females that both wanted to be alpha Bitch,I'll never do that again) is a kids safety gate to ram in-between them. The ways to separate them does not help with what sets it off in the first place though. Dog fights are awful and I am so sorry you are going through it. I wish I had the magic solution.

 

[cali baker]

Thanku for your replies! [MENTION=2894]2BullyMama[/MENTION] Christine, yep, they both have been getting pretty good exercise on an almost daily basis. The day of the big fight surprised me b/c that a.m. we went for a longer walk (about 1 hr) so i thought they'd both be too pooped out to rumble with each other like that. I guess I would feel bad to have to crate Tate again. He does so well being out all day long but i was curious if this creates more problems with Finn since he's not crated and sees Tate "free". Tate definitely does seem to follow Finn's lead. Finn is first in a lot of things; he will shove Tate out of the way to get outside the door first, he will shove his way to the water bowl to drink first, that type of thing, and Tate lets him w/out any problems. So maybe Tate does indeed know he is "second", so to speak.
[MENTION=9157]ddnene[/MENTION] Tracey, thanks for the whistle tip. I have one but haven't used it with them but will now.

I am thinking I want to get Finn evaluated by the vet. He plays hard w/that varsity ball and gets himself into a lot of leaves and bushes, which leaves him w/scrapes and bug bites so maybe there's something "bugging" him!

 

[cali baker]

Thanks [MENTION=13737]1Chumly[/MENTION] for your thoughts. You're right, it's figuring out what sets them off in the first place and trying to prevent a fight from happening...that's what i'm aiming for.

I also read that applying a scent that the boys associate with me, like a perfume, onto the non-dominant dog (Tate in this case), might help deter fights too. The logic is that Finn will smell me on Tate and he will think more "loving mommy thoughts" instead of the negative, "i want to beat you up" thoughts. Not sure how effective this is though, plus I don't wear perfume.

 

[2BullyMama]

another thing I thought of, if you are not doing this, you should. Banks was ALWAYS in training, we never stopped with her for the whole 9 yrs. she worked for everything all the time, invited on furniture, in/out door behind us, etc. make sure you are always doing this with Finn... Tate you can lax here and there, because he is not the dominate issue, but with Finn, stay the line with him

 

[karmasworld]

I have 2 females that hate each other...both were fine with each other untill younger one came in heat...now the have to be separated totally. ..even will bust baby gate down to get to other...Stop That!! Is a product by Sentry that has helped me tremendously!! The still cant b next to each other but if i spray in their face when first sign of a fight coming on the will go separate direction away from baby gate

 

[Libra926]

Finn = Orion
Tate = Vegas

I know the feeling.

 

[RiiSi]

I feel for you totally. My boys have been good for awhile now, but it means no toys, bones etc. when they're together. I firmly believe that the ice age helped, even though I haven't always followed the no attention rule nowadays...

http://www.englishbulldognews.com/forums/training-and-behavioral/42322-ice-age-arrived.html

 

[brutus77]

Ok so I am going to throw myself out there. I know I will get a lot of crap from some people but I don't really care. Everyone here knows my Brutus and Frankie story. Brutus is a very anxious dog with major OCD. HI'm and frank got to the place where they could be in harmony until about two months ago. Brutus started attacking frank for no reason. I had to do the same thing pick up furniture and bang it to get him to stop. I had Brutus checked by the vet for everything from his chronic ear infections to seizures. Nothing. He was just being aggressive. I even had to monitor what toys they played with because Brutus would growl and be stupid. bones were absolutely out of the question. I started Brutus on doggie Prozac and my babies life has changed for the better. He no longer attacks Frankie for no reason, and he and frank can actually have a nylar bone each and lay next to each other and chew in harmony. I know training is still key here, but it is really hard to train when Brutus would attack without warning. Brutus is not and I repeat NOT a vicious dog. He loves to play with his doggie friends but when his anxiety gets the better of him he gets defensive. He is so much more relaxed and it has made him a better dog and doggie brother. No fights in the tI me he has been on it. It has not changed his personality at all. I wasn't going to make this info public knowledge because I know people feel strongly about meds like this but I think you should discuss this with your vet Henny before something happens that you can't stop.

 

[dolphin]

Tate is bigger than Finn. Finn is more aggressive. YOU must be the Alpha.

I agree with Christine, crate both and when you feed them put them in yhe other room untol youre able to put the bowls down and let them out to eat. Id put both of their harnesses on and have them follow you through doorways. Showing them who the alpha is, you. I think a lot of this stems from them both vieing for your affection. Maybe [MENTION=7260]Chumley[/MENTION] could help.

 

[cali baker]

thanks for sharing that Rosalie @brutus77. I would be open to medication if that is something that would benefit Finn. I was truly disheartened yesterday when i was out walking Tate by himself. My neighbor John told me (in the nicest way possible) that he'd be happy if he never saw Finn again.

I know this sounds like a terribly cruel thing to say but in the past Finn has nipped John's finger and most recently head-butted him and thus, cut his lip. There was blood dripping down my neighbor's mouth and i thought he broke a tooth. John has always been very nice to Finn, but I do believe it's b/c my neighbor is a very tall person and Finn was trying to protect me probably(?) So, it's not just aggression towards Tate and other dogs but to some humans too that I worry about.

@karmasworld, thanks for the tip. I've never heard of that product before and will check it out.

 

[brutus77]

thanks for sharing that Rosalie @brutus77. I would be open to medication if that is something that would benefit Finn. I was truly disheartened yesterday when i was out walking Tate by himself. My neighbor John told me (in the nicest way possible) that he'd be happy if he never saw Finn again.

I know this sounds like a terribly cruel thing to say but in the past Finn has nipped John's finger and most recently head-butted him and thus, cut his lip. There was blood dripping down my neighbor's mouth and i thought he broke a tooth. John has always been very nice to Finn, but I do believe it's b/c my neighbor is a very tall person and Finn was trying to protect me probably(?) So, it's not just aggression towards Tate and other dogs but to some humans too that I worry about.

@karmasworld, thanks for the tip. I've never heard of that product before and will check it out.

Discuss it with your vet. seeing my boy happy and relaxed is worth more to me than anything. It does take months for full effect, but it is really worth looking into.