Cystinuria type III

[Cbrugs]

I will be getting a male EB at the end of April. I have the choice between two of the males. The breeder is a show home and very reputable. However, I just found out yesterday that both of the males have been tested and have cystinuria type III. I have spoken to the breeder and done a lot of research on the internet (including reading past threads on here) and it appears that this type of cystinuria is testosterone driven so neutering eliminates any possibility of crystals forming. I was never planning on showing or breeding so neutering was always the plan. It sounds like crystals usually form after the age of 1 and it's rare for it to happen in a puppy. Per the agreement, the puppy is to get neutered at age 1, however, if for some reason he starts having problems at like 8 months or something, we can neuter him then. The breeder is also a vet tech for a bully specialist and said I can bring him in any time to be checked out if I think there might be an issue.

Also, based on what I have read on the internet, you should allegedly feed a low protein diet. Jax (my Frenchie) gets fed raw which isn't necessarily low protein. The breeder is kind of anti-raw but it's my dog, so I will feed what I want. However, if a low protein diet truly is the best, I will do whatever I have to (other than one of those nasty prescription diets). The breeder has asked me to feed a low protein diet until he is age 1 and I am not even sure what is considered low protein.

I still intend on going forward with getting one of these puppies as it sounds like it can be common with the bulldog breed and neutering is supposed to take care of the problem and it looks like several members on this forum have dealt with this issue. So I am just wondering if anyone has any personal advice for me or words of wisdom. Any help is appreciated!

Here are a couple pictures of the pups. I met them on Saturday at 3 weeks of age. We will see them again when they are 6 weeks old and their personalities have come out. At this very moment, I am leaning towards the piebald.

 

[bullmama]

So glad to welcome you officially to EBN [MENTION=16619]Cbrugs[/MENTION]
[MENTION=3354]RiiSi[/MENTION] is the perfect person to help you about this subject. Knowing the breeder tested for this does show good intentions.


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[RiiSi]

Hi and welcome. You can feed raw as well, but you can modify it a little bit. You can feed more veggies, tripe and maybe some cooked millet or buckwheat. Add water in to his food so he gets hydrated which is important with all types of stones. My boy had Hyperuricouria which is a bit different, so I can't gie you the best advice about the food. Mastiffs suffer from Cystinuria more than bulldogs and there is groups in the internet where you can get info from them. Also monitoring his urine pH is important and that is best done with an electrical pH-meter. Good luck, hope all goes well.

 

[Cbrugs]

Hi and welcome. You can feed raw as well, but you can modify it a little bit. You can feed more veggies, tripe and maybe some cooked millet or buckwheat. Add water in to his food so he gets hydrated which is important with all types of stones. My boy had Hyperuricouria which is a bit different, so I can't gie you the best advice about the food. Mastiffs suffer from Cystinuria more than bulldogs and there is groups in the internet where you can get info from them. Also monitoring his urine pH is important and that is best done with an electrical pH-meter. Good luck, hope all goes well.

I know someone who works with a pet nutritionist and she is going to ask him some questions when he is back in town. I just wonder if some proteins would be better than others for a dog that has this condition. And I wonder if once he gets neutered, if I have to worry about his diet at all. I'm just trying to learn all I can before I bring him home.

 

[Dollys Owner]

Most important thing is for dog to drink a lot of fluid, so canned dog food or adding a lot of water to the kibble is essential. Beef, lamb and rabbit are lower in methionine than other meats so you should choose one of those. Your breeder was right in saying you just need to feed low protein until dog gets neutered. From what I was reading you may not want to make alkaline urine which you need for cysteine stone dissolution since that can promote other types of stones. But, if you do decide to alkalinize the urine you could give potassium citrate to achieve that (0.5 meq/kg/day to start). You are aiming for urine with a pH of 7 to 7.5 .

 

[Cbrugs]

Most important thing is for dog to drink a lot of fluid, so canned dog food or adding a lot of water to the kibble is essential. Beef, lamb and rabbit are lower in methionine than other meats so you should choose one of those. Your breeder was right in saying you just need to feed low protein until dog gets neutered. From what I was reading you may not want to make alkaline urine which you need for cysteine stone dissolution since that can promote other types of stones. But, if you do decide to alkalinize the urine you could give potassium citrate to achieve that (0.5 meq/kg/day to start). You are aiming for urine with a pH of 7 to 7.5 .

The dog will be neutered at age 1 so I'm hoping the issue gets eliminated with that. I just want to make sure I do what I need to prior to that. I was thinking of starting him on Fromm, they have some that are at 24% protein. Maybe I'll add some wet food to that. I know Fromm has a recall on their canned food last year. Anyone know of a good canned food to feed?

 

[Cbrugs]

Another thought...he doesn't currently have stones (he's only 3 1/2 weeks right now) and he may not even get stones before he is neutered. So I might be worrying over nothing. So perhaps I just need to feed him a lower protein kibble, maybe add some wet food, and make sure he drinks plenty of water and that's it. In looking at all the past threads, it seems like all of the dogs got the stones after the age of 1 and before they were neutered????

 

[Dollys Owner]

I just took a quick look at some quality canned dog food- they seemed to have high protein content, so you may be better off adding a lot of water to the Fromm.

 

[Cbrugs]

I just took a quick look at some quality canned dog food- they seemed to have high protein content, so you may be better off adding a lot of water to the Fromm.

So by adding water, do you mean let the kibble soak in water for a bit and then drain the water out? I'm hoping after he is 1 and neutered, I can get him on a raw diet as that contains a lot of moisture.

 

[Dollys Owner]

When I add water to kibble for my dog I add it immediately before serving and my dog eats the kibble and licks up the water all at the same time since it hasn't absorbed in yet.

 

[Dollys Owner]

Don't give your dog any NuVet Plus- it has methionine in it.

 

[Cbrugs]

Don't give your dog any NuVet Plus- it has methionine in it.

Would I need to avoid methionine forever or just until he gets neutered? I've been looking at lower protein kibbles (24% - 27% range) and after looking at Fromm, Acana Singles and Zignature, I just saw that the Acana had .4% methionine so I should cross that off the list.

 

[Dollys Owner]

I would say that if you get him neutered early, no stones would have developed so you won't have to worry about giving methionine. If you get him neutered later, some stones may have already developed, but I'm not sure the time frame - so I think you should ask the breeder if you can neuter earlier, most common is to neuter at 6 months.

 

[sunkissedpr1ncs]

Our Barkley had cystine stones removed when he was about 1.5 years. We found out he had them a few weeks after he got neutered. We had them removed and I did my research and found out about neutering preventing them from reoccurring. I haven't fed him any type of special diet and it's been 3 years since and he's had no problems at all!


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[chitownbully]

[MENTION=16619]Cbrugs[/MENTION]....I would like to share my experience with cystine stones in hopes it will help you with your baby. I have an 18 month old male bully, intact at the onset of all of this. I would also like to add, intact only because he is very very high anesthetic risk, with surgeries only being done at the university.
About a month ago, he began having trouble urinating, urinating frequently with traces of blood in his urine. Urinalysis showed some cystine crystals in his urine. They took an x-ray and an ultrasound was done, ultrasound showed a pretty good size stone. Since these do not dissolve with medication like other types of stones. We had no other option but to have them surgically removed and have him neutered at the same time. His prostate is also very enlarged, which i'm told should go down now that he is neutered. Having an intact male without mating is never a good thing.
After doing lots of research I have found this to be a genetic defect, but not all dogs born with cystinuria will develop stones. In a study of five generations of one offspring, only one of six cystinuric males formed stones. Although a low protein diet can help, actual experiences of people who have attempted to prevent the stones from forming with diet have not been positive. It's also hard for cystine stones to form in alkaline urine (dog urine is normally acidic), but maintaining a constant alkaline urine with diet or supplements is difficult, and can lead to the formation of other types of stones, esp in stone-forming males. Furthermore, stones will not dissolve in alkaline urine, if the urine becomes acidity even briefly, stones can form and will not dissolve just because alkaline urine is achieved. It seems the use of medications is the most successful, in preventing stones from forming. Something I plan on discussing with his vet at our post-op appt.

Well I'm happy to say surgery was a success without any complications. He is now home recovering quite well! My only fear at this time is him developing them again which is a very high probability.

Happy bully mom (for now)!