Help Needed! So hard...fighting and hurting each other :(

[mcardle3]

Had a lot of health issues arise and have not checked in in some time.

Big changes at Casa McArdle.

We got the situation with Custer and Sherman resolved. It was more a skin dad issue than anything else. Custer ADORES his dad. I mean he sits on Jim's underwear when Jim is on the toilet with his chin on Jim's knee looking lovingly up at him (hope that isn't TMI...but that's how it is at our house.) Sherman doesn't and never did really care about that. Sherman is more a mama's boy. Sherman however is the best behaved animal I've ever seen. The best most anyone has seen.

Custer perceived Sherman's occasional want of attention from what Custer deemed HIS is what caused the issue. A retraining of the skin dad, with consequences for Custer for misbehavior....a separation from dad while dad did love on Sherman and the realizationm that he had to share dad did come, slowly but surely.

THEN...and this is the hard part.

Just as things were going well for Custer and Sherman, puppy issues started with Stonewall. My friend, who works as a trainer said 3 males is going to cause issues from time to time. Stonewall got to be one. He got to be bigger than either and we all noticed something. As much as it was Custer's NEED for his skin dad...it was the continual agitation by Stonewall that was causing a major amount of angst in our home.

Stonewall is an antagonizer. Relentless in this pursuit. My two older boys never stopped this behavior when he was a pup, letting him pull them around, tear their skin, bloody them. When he was a puppy they should have stopped it but they are lacksadasial about it at best, and never put the kabosh on it. Stoney turns one...and they are now faced with a big puppy dog not only pulling on them, but jumping on them, tboning them in the yard as they tried to pee. Puncture holes in their faces and gouges in their ears. They'd try to sleep, he'd jump on them like a Tigger on crack. They'd be chewing a toy or bone and he'd pound them until they gave it up until one day....

it was enough.

Every day after that was the same. Stonewall would begin, they'd take it for x amount of time and then it was on. One day Sherman attacked so hard and fought so hard he fell over and couldn't breathe. He limped from being hit when he tried to poop or pee. Custer never growled warning ... when it got to be too much, he'd try to kill Stonewall.

We had to keep them apart all the time.

That is no way to have to live, for any of us. Stonewall began nervous peeing and sneak peeing. He was afraid of them, and yet would not stop with his poking them.

I knew it was time, for the first time in my 50 years of living with dogs, to rehome one.

Stonewall.

Stoney now lives in a mansion of a house with the dogwalker we employed to walk him and house sit him when we traveled and he could not go. He is much loved, and learning from a little black pug who doesn't snap first, but growls first, that his personal space is HIS and not to be violated. He is walked LOTS with all kinds of other dogs and learning manners. He is loved by his new mama and happy. He gets the run of the house and has 3 teenage boys who think he is the bomb.

At home...Sherman and Custer ... it is like a calm swept our house. They snuggle and share toys. They play tug of war again without a real war ensuing.

Sometimes, the hard thing is the right thing to do.

 

[ChrisRN]

[MENTION=2071]Davidh[/MENTION] sounds like the voice of experience!

 

[Rural mystic]

Well this was a wonderful thread with lots of really good information. Just had to post that and my gratitude to EBN participants who offer seasoned advice without pulling punches but with sympathy and compassion. Good job

 

[anatess]

I didn't read all the posts. I just read the first one and a little bit of this page... I read this is already resolved.

But just as an information for the future. The first post - all that you described is typical Resource Guarding behavior. Your husband is the Resource. I read a few posts down that you treated this like a heirarchy problem - which is perfectly fine as your husband would have to establish his position on that heirarchy. But, this may not always work for others because the problem may not involve a heirarchy issue (Resource Guarding can happen with Omega dogs). There are specific steps you can take to deal with resource guarding and I remember posting one on EBN a few months back. I'm in a bit of a hurry as my husband is waiting for me to go out to dinner so I'll search on it later so I can link to it here.

Okay, I'm not going to offer training advice because the problem is already resolved. But yes, anytime you have 2 or more dogs of the same gender (regardless of male or female), you have a higher risk of fights. This is just fine if you're a strong alpha. My husband had 2 unaltered dobermans when I met him. We got married and him and the dogs moved into my house and my husband spent $800 stitching up the dogs after they had a fight. But, he solved that problem by establishing his alpha status and putting both dogs in their places. I am not a strong alpha. I'm a wimp actually and I couldn't do what he did. No way. But the dogs acknowledged my high rank because my husband trained them to recognize my position in the pack. My husband would tell any one of the dogs - "Watch mommy" - and I tell you, the dog will stick to my knee like velcro! I can swim deep into the Atlantic ocean - when the wave crests it goes up to my neck - and the dog will not leave my side even if he has to paddle like crazy to fight the waves. And I can give them any command that my husband taught them and they follow it. Even when my husband is not around. So, with this experience, I can tell you that it doesn't matter if I don't have the alpha personality, they still respect me because my husband insists on it. Oh, and ever since they moved to my house, I started to take over the feeding responsibilities - so that also has some impact.

Glad to know everything is back to normal back in your place.

 

[Ftse 100]

I dont have any advice for you but wanted to wish luck with this

 

[Vicaroo1000]

Had a lot of health issues arise and have not checked in in some time.

Big changes at Casa McArdle.
At home...Sherman and Custer ... it is like a calm swept our house. They snuggle and share toys. They play tug of war again without a real war ensuing.
Sometimes, the hard thing is the right thing to do.

I am so happy that you've made the changes that bring peace to your pack. It must have been heartbreaking to make the decision.

Bo used to do something similar with Bea. He was a year younger than her but much bigger by this time and while I very briefly tried to let them resolve it themselves, I quickly saw that I had to step in by disagreeing with the behavior that prefaced the t-bone move or head butt. Bo would get real quiet and stare in Bea's direction. Bea would pick up on his energy and look --- pensive, I guess. A couple of times, I set them up TO have this happen and was within arm's length of Bo. ACK!! Hand bite to the neck!! (This increased my chances to alter the behavior if I were across the yard or on the porch) Rinse and repeat and Bo learned he cannot "stalk" Bea. Does he still try to do it? Absolutely. He's a two year old! LOL

Another lesson from your experience is the importance of the pack leader treating all pack members exactly the same. No favorites. Not that you did that -- just pointing out that a pack of dogs shouldn't be able to perceive any injustices between them from their pack leader.

Stoney now has a big huge family of adoring humans! What pup wouldn't love that?!

 

[BarbaraDavis]

It would be worth the money to have a qualified behaviorist come in to evaluate your situation. Then you'd know exactly what was going on and the best way to address it. These situations can escalate rapidly if they're not addressed quickly, so the sooner you get someone in for an intervention, the better.

 

[BrianW]

It would be worth the money to have a qualified behaviorist come in to evaluate your situation. Then you'd know exactly what was going on and the best way to address it. These situations can escalate rapidly if they're not addressed quickly, so the sooner you get someone in for an intervention, the better. You can find great canine behavior consultants at www.iaabc.org.

I agree with Barbara 100%. See I am going through a similar situation with 2 females that weI have. The first 2 weeks that they were together, they got along with no problems at all. Now my oldest female wants to attack our newest when she is out on the couch. We contacted a behaviorist and are working through the problems via positive reinforcement rather than trying to make the older one submit (Cesar Milan type mentality). I am completely on board with the behaviorist and in the first week of doing this have seen nothing but major improvements. In our first meeting we learned that you have only 3 seconds to resolve an issue before it can occur and that it takes 36 hours for the dog to forget that the incident ever happened (adrenaline to go back to normal). We went from having several occurances every day to one every few days.

 

[christyjulene]

Sounds like Stonewall has a great new home and you have peace of mind. Sometimes that is all we can ask for at the end of the day.

 

[Vicaroo1000]

I agree with Barbara 100%. See I am going through a similar situation with 2 females that weI have. The first 2 weeks that they were together, they got along with no problems at all. Now my oldest female wants to attack our newest when she is out on the couch. We contacted a behaviorist and are working through the problems via positive reinforcement rather than trying to make the older one submit (Cesar Milan type mentality). I am completely on board with the behaviorist and in the first week of doing this have seen nothing but major improvements. In our first meeting we learned that you have only 3 seconds to resolve an issue before it can occur and that it takes 36 hours for the dog to forget that the incident ever happened (adrenaline to go back to normal). We went from having several occurances every day to one every few days.

I'm a confident dog handler and a follower of Mr. Millan and I rather doubt that he would "make the older one submit" in this situation. I think he'd say this: your dogs need exercise, discipline and then affection. In that order. I also think he'd say you need to disagree with the attacking behavior and reward cooperative behaviors.

Positive reinforcement is THE way to go, I agree!

 

[BrianW]

This is just my opinion.

There are some positive aspects of Mr. Milan's training, but I also believe that there are many negative aspects. I do not believe in the aversive training techniques that he teaches such as: Flooding, finger pokes, leash jerks and alpha rolls. My opinion is that all of these create unpleasant sensations which can sometimes cause unwanted stress and fear within dogs. This fear may be why a dog may avoid the behavior in the future, but what if it doesn't? I believe that this could all lead to additional behavioral problems. A better approach is that of Ian Dunbar, which is a positive- reinforcement/rewards based approach, and is not physical in anyway like Mr. Milan's.

 

[Vicaroo1000]

This is just my opinion.

There are some positive aspects of Mr. Milan's training, but I also believe that there are many negative aspects. I do not believe in the aversive training techniques that he teaches such as: Flooding, finger pokes, leash jerks and alpha rolls. My opinion is that all of these create unpleasant sensations which can sometimes cause unwanted stress and fear within dogs. This fear may be why a dog may avoid the behavior in the future, but what if it doesn't? I believe that this could all lead to additional behavioral problems. A better approach is that of Ian Dunbar, which is a positive- reinforcement/rewards based approach, and is not physical in anyway like Mr. Milan's.

I am also a big fan of Ian Dunbar. I have two pretty amazing dogs that are so thanks to the teachings of Cesar Millan. I think they key with any method is to take the parts you are capable of properly executing and leave the rest.