Help Needed! So hard...fighting and hurting each other :(

[mabel lou]

Here is another thing that you should think about. If your husband is going to break all the routines that you have set in place for your dogs then to be able to spend time with him should be almost like a reward. Good behavior then quality time with him for a few minutes. Bad behavior around him then time out and that is being said very respectfully.
I have a rescue girl who is 6yrs old and she came to my home recently and immediately began taking over the beds the toys and my girl who is still a puppy in my eyes (8mths) was getting the growls and snapped at when she merely wanted to lay in the bed that which I had initially bought her but Thelma came and decided she wanted it and so I had to buy two more beds to please them I thought which didn't work at all because the rescue girl still claimed the original bed so my only answer was to take out all beds and go buy a much bigger bed and they had no choice but to allow one another to lay in it. I realize this isn't fighting each other in a way that could harm them but I am the only alpha in this house and my rules are my rules and all will follow when it comes to these dogs, their is absolutely no confusion about what is what around here so maybe they need to go back to the basics of how you began training them from the start. Please do not think for one moment that I am saying this is your husbands fault, rather than saying it just sounds more like their a bit confused as to what is acceptable and what is not acceptable behavior anymore.

 

[mabel lou]

While going to my sons home he even tells me that bodine which is my sons dog is being put in time out for bad behavior and I am not allowed to talk to him or do anything to him (like love on him) because he knows that this is like rewarding bodine for bad behavior and because bodine loves me dearly and gets so very excited to see me that when I can't say anything or do anything to or for bodine he begins to understand that his behavior is not acceptable in my sons eyes. To them he is like a reward so who wants to give up their favorite NEW TOY and so they will fight over it. Again this is just my personal opinion said respectfully again.

 

[Texas Carol]

Jim (daddy to the dogs, my fiance) and I are having a MAJOR issue at our home.

This all began when Jim was laid off two weeks ago and is now home all the time with the boys.

The boys. Sherman (4 years old...had been the alpha), Custer (almost 2), Stonewall (10 months old).

All three rescues. All three neutered.

All three got along very well. Cleaning and grooming each other, sleeping in a pile of bulldogs, and then dad got laid off. Their schedule changed. Dad is (3 weeks now) home all day. Custer (2 year old) loves Dad like nothing else on earth. HOWEVER...now that dad is home all day, Custer insists on being near him, and if Sherman goes near them the fight is on.

At first it was posturing and growling. It is now puncture wounds and tears.

We separate them, but as soon as they are together if Dad is in the room...its on. Sometimes for no apparent reason. When Dad is out of the house and it is just me and them...no fights. The puppy is never part of these fights.

As Custer is now 2 years old (or nearly) I understand he is getting more mature and may want to vie for dominance? I've never had t his issue in all the years I've had dogs.

We know Jim is the issue. We know Custer is claiming him or demonstrating dominant behavior in regard to Jim...but how do you stop this.

I'd imagine Jim has to stop it. They do not behave like this with me.

Jim has never been with dogs before, so this is a learning thing for him. They obey me, they think about obeying him. It just makes me sad.

Of course you feel sad, so does Jim and so do the dogs...the family dynamic has broken down
and nobody knows what to do, my sympathy is with you all Jim is grieving his job loss and
is stressed, Custer may be picking up on this and protecting Daddy but irregardless, this can't be
allowed to become entrenched behavior. The GREAT NEWS is...you have EBN and they do have the
answers and you will get this solved...dry those tears! Jim probably isn't wanting to crack down on
his babies right now as most as love on them and seek their comforting...who wouldn't? But he has
to learn to be the Alpha, even as he's feeling down, depressed and vulnerable (due to job loss) so
order can be restored and everyone gets back to one big loving family. He can do it.

May I offer my condolences on his job loss and for a better one to quickly come his way, for order to
be restored and for you & Jim to feel GOD's loving, protective and providing arms wrapped tightly
around y'all. This is a scary & traumatic time...please be good to yourselves! Keeping y'all in prayer

 

[Vicaroo1000]

I'd imagine Jim has to stop it. They do not behave like this with me. Jim has never been with dogs before, so this is a learning thing for him. They obey me, they think about obeying him. It just makes me sad.

You've said it right there.

Your pack doe not view your husband as a pack leader and they are vying for that position. The first thing I'd do is determine if your husband is genuinely interested in gaining control of his pack. (Yes, you AND him can be pack leader. The idea is that ALL the humans in the family -- kids, grandma, everyone -- are seen as a leader to the dogs in your pack. If he's not "into it", it will never work. And if he is, get him the latest Cesar Millan book. I'm not kidding. He can read up on what leadership means and, if he's like me, that information will impact other areas of his life too. Bonus!!!

Next, he has to be able to stop these scraps that are going on BEFORE they escalate. And I mean LONG BEFORE the blood and tears part! This is just one slice in the big pie that will convince these dogs that he is in fact the pack leader there. Because dogs interpret their world in this order, "Nose, Eyes, Ears"; all the screaming in the world isn't going to get the reaction you want --- at first. Eventually, when leadership has been established, sound (A loud HEY or "TSST" or whatever you guys use) will work but ONLY if you've not let the scrap escalate. Stop it BEFORE IT STARTS and you'll never have to deal with the blood / tears part again -- but this takes genuine participation from the human. That means being keenly aware (without being anxious, nervous or fearful) of the energy in your pack! This is hugely important. If he misses these opportunities to "nip it in the bud" he will miss opportunities to exhibit his leadership -- and control --- over your pack. Watching for specific body languages or posturing between the dogs long before the growling starts. When this occurs, simply "disagree with the behavior". I used a squirt bottle with water in it --- SPARINGLY of course, as even that can "wear off" if you overuse the tool. The squirt bottle however, is not the magic bullet. It's just one thing in a giant tapestry of things we humans can do to build our relationships with our dogs. There are lots of ways for doing this and that book he's gonna read will help him a bunch.

The good news? Your husband is embarking on a journey that can truly impact all areas of his life. Sounds magical doesn't it? It is. When your pups figure out he's "the boss" you've solved more problems than you realize you even have at this point.

Keep us posted!
There's nothing more gratifying -- to me --- than seeing a new pack leader emerge! Your dogs are CRAVING this leadership. Give it to them and watch them flourish as a pack!!!

 

[mcardle3]

update on 'the generals'.

No fighting last night or this morning. I put a leash on Custer (the aggressor) and tried the Nothing is Free (or whatever you all called it) approach. He just refuses to sit and Jim and I just refuse to let him refuse. We gently help him sit, then give him a treat, or a pet, or a toy he wants. We are doing this with the other two as well (sherman is so easy, I swear he reads minds). The leash gives Jim some feeling of control. I'm helping Jim see the difference in tone. What a tone that brooks no argument sounds like vs cajoling. Jim just wants his family intact...and so he's willing to do whatever.

Jim went out for pizza for dinner last night, leash came off Custer and peace reigned supreme. As soon as Jim came home the leash came on and he spent the evening learning WITH Custer.

We had a great morning. No fighting, and in fact, custer was over cleaning Sherman's ears while daddy was getting ready to go help in a court case today. I know it isn't over, but we're working on it. WE DO NOT want this boy leaving our lives and Jim is more than willing to do whatever it takes to make sure that doesn't happen.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[mabel lou]

awe so happy to hear the good news, keep up the training and you will have peace I am sure of it!

 

[Vicaroo1000]

Are you making him sit because that's not an aggressive posture or ?

I love that Jim is using assertive energy!

When I first started devouring everything possible about "Dog Psychology", I had a real problem figuring out what the hell "Calm and Assertive" was! At first, I thought, "Oh I have to sound like a meanie to train my dog?" What helped me --- and still does --- (don't laugh) is this; when I am trying to channel my calm and assertive pack leader self, I think of myself as Queen Elizabeth. I really do! I'm a passionate, emotional person -- it's HARD HARD HARD for me to be calm and assertive together. It really helps me. Perhaps your husband can be Richard the 3rd or Henry the 8th? :D

 

[mabel lou]

My family when having issues will bring their dog over here to what they call doggy boot camp and I work with their dog to find out what is going on. Eventually the behavior comes out in some form or fashion. After observing what is going on we then will go over to their house and see what happens their as well with my family member their. Now my sister gets sad when she sees that I am not going to give in to her precious dog lol who is wanting it his way and only his way. She sees sides of her dog that she never seen before because with me he knows I am the pack leader whether it be over here at my home or someone elses home.
The point being that my sister has never known what being a pack leader is all about and why a dog would need one. She now is making progress with him and beginning to understand the importance of being the alpha not just to be in charge but to take the stress off of Meister that she was putting on him through what she considered "just loving my baby boy" Today Meister is a well behaved boy who knows who his pack leader is and wow did he change. My brother is going through the same thing right now with his puppy and she is wonderful and my brother loves her dearly and just listens to me talk and actually will follow through with what I am saying to help him out. He is doing great with her.

 

[mcardle3]

A friend who is a trainer suggested that we make the boys learn to sit and wait before given a treat instead of clamoring for the best position. That we have them sit before telling them they can eat instead of just digging in. Things like that. Jim never made them wait before coming in, he just opened the door and let them buster their way in. Now they wait politely (in just two days...we still have some slip ups with the puppy...lol) and then when invited in walk in politely. I think he (Jim) kinda liked the free for all he had with them. They make his heart light and they make him laugh. Now it is more regulated...and I think for a time we need it to be that way, because it is working.

Custer? He's not all that happy about some of the changes and he is the one bucking the system the most, but he knows he has to obey and he knows when he pins his ears and lowers his head at Sherman, we see it and it isn't allowed. We grab his (armpit) firmly (not pinching) and say "behave" and he stops now. They were in bed together this a.m. YAY

Vicaroo...Jim's Irish, so we don't want to give him an English role...he'll go all political and tell us they need to give the 6 counties back. LOL

And thank you to those that sent me birthday greetings. How am I going to spend it? Helping Jim put in a new commode. Tomorrow is turkey and toilet day for us. Fun times

 

[Vicaroo1000]

[MENTION=4717]mcardle3[/MENTION] - BWHWHAHAHAHAHAHA! He can channel Ruaidhrí, King of Ireland, then!

I love LOVE LOVE the progress you are having with your pack; particularly Custer who's now determined his reign is OVER. ha ha

That "free for all".... I know exactly what you're talking about. Bo has a friend we see on our walks everyday; one of the maintenance guys. They have a mutal love affair these two. He cannot WAIT to see Bo and Bo looks for him all the walk. He wears a reflective vest so anytime -- ever -- Bo sees someone in a Golf Cart or a reflective vest, he goes bananas. I've given into him for SO LONG that I CAN NO LONGER control his behavior when he DOES see his buddy. Most of the time, I let go of the leash and let Bo run to him and they both love it. Their daily reunions are like they've not seen each other for decades. ha ha ha Of course, the problem with that is this: when Bo sees a short guy with a ball cap in a reflective vest, he almost tears my arm off trying to get to him. Not good! HAHAHAHAHA! It makes him so happy - so I give in. Not a very good pack leader!

You should have seen him at the dog park that butted up next to the golf course.....all those carts....he went apeshit.

 

[Vicaroo1000]

[MENTION=4717]mcardle3[/MENTION] - How's it going with your pack? Tell us about your successes --- and failures! We can all learn from your experience.

 

[Momma2Bullies]

[MENTION=4717]mcardle3[/MENTION]
I would also love to hear how things are going! I am having a similar situation. I have been off work for about 5 weeks now, and coincidentally my two (littermates, boy and girl, 1.5yrs old) have started SERIOUSLY going at each other. I am the primary caregiver (I am maybe not the best pack leader) but I am the one always with the dogs since day 1 for sure. They were fine up until now... I am wondering if it is their age (is this a normal "figure out the rules" stage?) or is it because I am around all the time now? The fights happen even when I am not in the room though. I try to prevent it (they start raising their hackles at each other before the explosion) but sometimes I am too late. I thought Wilbur was the aggressor, but this morning I believe Layla was. There is no rhyme or reason to it, if it isn't about beds/toys/food I wonder what is going on?

It is so hard... now I don't trust them to be alone together and there is no way I can leave them uncrated when I am out.

Thing is, otherwise they snuggle and sleep together and play together rest of the time.

Anyway, would love to hear how you are making out!

 

[Vicaroo1000]

"terrible twos" maybe? LOL

If your pups don't feel as tho they have a pack leader, they'll each vie for the position. Best thing you can do is to be that leader for them so they don't have to compete for the job.

A pack will always go back together -- regardless of the spats and arguments. Dogs get over things "instantaneously" (compared to humans) and dogs are pack animals; they will always come back together. Its in their DNA. Remove the need for leadership squabbles and you'll have fewer -- and then eventually - none of them.

 

[elliey]

I have the same problem with 4 dogs only one being a bully. I have contacted several trainers and found that bullys are possessive of their people and for them to be dog aggressive toward their person is nature rather than nurture. You have to be the "alpha" but this doesn't always work well, at least in my case as my bully doesn't growl, just postures and if I am looking the other way, the fight is on before I see it coming. The other's don't fight, just try to get away, but this doesn't help things, my Malcolm has a bulldog mentality and once he gets started, doesn't want to stop so my learning curve is self-taught but this is what works for me. The more I catch him and correct him the better the behavior is so I start with the "walk" and leave the lease on. I keep him by my side when all the dogs are together and jump on him verbally when I see him start to posture. I'm now down to a stern "ah!". Second, for when he does get past me, there is a spray on Amazon which is citronella and lemon which doesn't not hurt them but makes them back off. I have used it once and it was successful. Don't know why it is a dog deterrent as it smells quite nice but I'll take it! Third, and this is a pain, when I want to spend 1 on 1 time with the dogs, lots of pets and training, I do it behind a baby gate as this sets him off more than anything. I have learned that this is the number 1 reason why we have bulldog shelters as bullys are such great dogs in almost every way. He's fighting for you and most measures have to be preventative. Good luck!

 

[Vicaroo1000]

[MENTION=7527]elliey[/MENTION] - I like what you said about leaving the leash on. It's a way for you to access more "control" over the dog --- from the dog's point of view!

Some dogs are so keen to quickly spat, it's difficult to see the signs before the outburst - but they are there. I also like that you mention "the walk" - so important! It's not just movement - it's an opportunity for leadership (hopefully, for the human LOL)

Important too to remember that dogs "let it go" far quicker than the humans.