Just SCOLDED by Breeder for feeding puppy Grain-Free Fromm!!

[2BullyMama]

I gotta say..... your boy looks awesome and I agree with all the other posts; your breeder was ignorant and rude. i am sure she has had, unfortunately, some sick or not so perfect looking pups, but she is not going to tell you that or even admit to it -- breeding may be her only income and if word gets out there are issues ---- well, you get where I am going.

Trust your gut and what his health tells you...... that is what matters - not her childish bashing.

 

[ajwhitt44]

I personally think Brembo looks awesome for his age, they all go through a 'gangly' stage, some more than others, don't sweat it. Brembo looks amazing compared to Pookie, whom for a while looked exactly like a boxer puppy! When I got him he was being fed RC too. He was soooo fat. And roly poly. His name from the breeder was FAT BOY!

Fromm is more LEAN and BETTER for your dog!!! BETTER for his health.... number one thing, all the rest of that stuff is FLUFF! It will fill in eventually. I think what she is talking about is FAT. Your puppy does not need carbs (aka fat) to grow! That is nonsense. They need protein, vitamins, and minerals!

Haha if you see my avatar you'll see what Brembo looked like also!! So fat and pudgy. The vet immediately told me he was overweight LOLOL!! Plus he farted all the time, I think it was the Eukanuba.

Question: If Fromm is more lean, should I be feeding a little more of it? I have been giving 3/4cup 3x a day. Now that he is 6 months old, I was contemplating going to 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 cup 2x a day. Thoughts? I'll probably post a thread about this topic.

I have a hard time believing that NONE of the dogs that she's bread has had any problems. It is not just EB's that can have problems, but all pedigree dogs and to say that all have been perfect is just nonsence. The best of breeders do not have litters full of show dogs. If she says that it's then your fault that if your's doesn't grow to be like all hers then she is just making sure that again she is the the only one in the world who knows how to breed only perfect dogs.
And you're doing perfect, Brembo looks perfect, don't question yourself.
I know it's hard to go against somebodys, who is supposed to an expert, recommendations and made feel guilty about it.

[MENTION=3354]RiiSi[/MENTION], you're right. Dogs in general have problems, and people are more likely to tell you about the good than the bad.

They are very show-oriented and even offer $500 back if you show a dog that was purchased by them and he wins at any time, in any category. Pretty cool incentive to start showing, but it's a testament to the fact that they expect all their dogs to hold their own and fill in nicely.

I gotta say..... your boy looks awesome and I agree with all the other posts; your breeder was ignorant and rude. i am sure she has had, unfortunately, some sick or not so perfect looking pups, but she is not going to tell you that or even admit to it -- breeding may be her only income and if word gets out there are issues ---- well, you get where I am going.

Trust your gut and what his health tells you...... that is what matters - not her childish bashing.

[MENTION=2894]2BullyMama[/MENTION], you're right also. She wouldn't tell me about any dogs that have not been healthy, as that would certainly jeopardize her future business.

I just don't know why she would tell me that my dog basically looks 'malnourished'.



She asked me if I am feeding him enough.... I replied that I was feeding him 3/4c 3x a day and that he inhales it. When i explained that he inhales his food she told me I am not giving him enough and must give him MORE! She explained that I needed to be feeding him enough to keep him satisfied but not enough to be over-feeding him

She recommended 1 3/4 cup 2x a day going forward. Would someone care to chime in on whether this would be acceptable?

I'm going to post a feeding thread because i'm having difficulty sifting through all the information.

THanks so much for all of your comments thus far, I really appreciate all of you!

 

[Fontanafox]

I guess there are some breeders that feed their puppies low quality food. I don't know if it's ignorance or just trying to save money. Wilson was being fed dog food from Costco as a puppy and BabyGirl was being fed Science Diet. I tried to do my own research and found Wellness Core was suppose to be good but then an employee from Petco said Royal Canin Bulldog was better because no one had ever returned a bag. (Now I realize how ridiculous that is) It wasn't till I came to this forum that I found out what 6 star foods were and about allergies. Now my bullies are on Natures Variety Instinct Limited Ingredient.

 

[ChanelnBrutus]

He looks perfect! Brutus was very long legged at one point he resembled a baby boxer LOL They grow out of it once they start filling out! Fromm is a great food to feed! I would definatley give the breeder a peice of mind!

Love love love Brembo's coloring he is a handsome boy!

 

[spork3127]

Ellie is around 4 and a half months old and lanky. Like Chanel said, Ellie also looks like a boxer at the right angle. I'm sure that they both will fill out over time.

 

[elearn]

She recommended 1 3/4 cup 2x a day going forward. Would someone care to chime in on whether this would be acceptable?

This is just to chime in about a different breeder's view point. My breeder was feeding Eukanuba Pure (its probably different than the one your breeder was feeding). She told me 1 1/4 cup twice a day. When I told her that Herman still seemed hungry, she said "If he's still seems hungry, then go to 1 1/2 cup twice per day."

I was skeptical that a tiny little 1/2 cup more per day would help. But she really cares about her dogs and knows that this amount is just right. I'm glad I listened to her and to this day, I still feed him 1 1/4c in the morning and I even reduced to 1 c at night, especially since I switched food to the non-grain food.

I know that I give him snacks and all during the day - and that all adds up to calories. I count his calories more than I do my own! Give him healthy snacks during the day and you wont have to worry so much about the meals.

 

[ajwhitt44]

This is just to chime in about a different breeder's view point. My breeder was feeding Eukanuba Pure (its probably different than the one your breeder was feeding). She told me 1 1/4 cup twice a day. When I told her that Herman still seemed hungry, she said "If he's still seems hungry, then go to 1 1/2 cup twice per day."

I was skeptical that a tiny little 1/2 cup more per day would help. But she really cares about her dogs and knows that this amount is just right. I'm glad I listened to her and to this day, I still feed him 1 1/4c in the morning and I even reduced to 1 c at night, especially since I switched food to the non-grain food.

I know that I give him snacks and all during the day - and that all adds up to calories. I count his calories more than I do my own! Give him healthy snacks during the day and you wont have to worry so much about the meals.

Hi! Thanks for your reply. I was a little confused by your post reading the amounts:

"I was skeptical that a tiny little 1/2 cup more per day would help." - do you mean 1/4c more per day would help? (1/2cup more would mean 1 3/4 cups)

"I'm glad I listened to her and to this day, I still feed him 1 1/4c in the morning and I even reduced to 1 c at night, especially since I switched food to the non-grain food." -so are you saying you DID NOT listen to the breeder? Because based on what you said, 1 1/4c is what you were feeding him originally.

THanks so much for chiming in! I just don't want to misunderstand what you are saying!!

 

[ccurran]

That is crazy that your breeder yelled at you for feeding your baby Fromm. My breeder was great and fed all her dogs Taste of the Wild from the get go and she has probably 6-8 adults with her permanently and then puppies that come and go. Our baby is 4.5 months old and around 26lbs. Go with your gut feeling and just enjoy your puppy! They get big so fast ... I am already missing when Seamus was 10 lbs lighter (easier to pick up!)

 

[elearn]

Hi! Thanks for your reply. I was a little confused by your post reading the amounts:

"I was skeptical that a tiny little 1/2 cup more per day would help." - do you mean 1/4c more per day would help? (1/2cup more would mean 1 3/4 cups)

"I'm glad I listened to her and to this day, I still feed him 1 1/4c in the morning and I even reduced to 1 c at night, especially since I switched food to the non-grain food." -so are you saying you DID NOT listen to the breeder? Because based on what you said, 1 1/4c is what you were feeding him originally.

THanks so much for chiming in! I just don't want to misunderstand what you are saying!!

Sorry, I meant that adding in an additional 1/4c per meal (total 1/2 cup per day) didn't look like a lot to me as I figured she would say to change to 2cups per meal or something. So originally she said 1 1/4c per meal 2x per day; then she said to adjust to 1 1/2c IF I thought he needed it. 1 1/4c twice per day was much less than what the bag of Eukanuba said! It said something like 4 cups per day! This is when I started to worry he wasnt getting the food he needed, etc which is why I asked her in the first place LOL THEN I started to worry with treats and all that he'd eat too much and get fat. LOL

So what I did instead was continue feeding him 1 1/4 c twice per day of the Eukanuba (her original recommendation) and I got him a toy called "Snoggle". I put an extra 1/4 cup inside Snoggle. This put me at ease....

However, when I switched to Earthborn, it says TOTAL of 2 1/4 cups per day which is less than what I was feeding him, but it's grain-free and higher quality so that is to be expected. So now I'm at 1 1/4c in the morning and 1 c at night.

I hope I'm making sense LOL I guess my point is that my breeder opted for feeding lower amounts and recommended a small jump in quantity if I thought he needed it. My vet said the same - if he still seems hungry, give him a little more. I personally want to feed him more because he looks "skinny" to me, but I know he probably is just fine.

I'm a mess, I know.

 

[ajwhitt44]

Sorry, I meant that adding in an additional 1/4c per meal (total 1/2 cup per day) didn't look like a lot to me as I figured she would say to change to 2cups per meal or something. So originally she said 1 1/4c per meal 2x per day; then she said to adjust to 1 1/2c IF I thought he needed it. 1 1/4c twice per day was much less than what the bag of Eukanuba said! It said something like 4 cups per day! This is when I started to worry he wasnt getting the food he needed, etc which is why I asked her in the first place LOL THEN I started to worry with treats and all that he'd eat too much and get fat. LOL

So what I did instead was continue feeding him 1 1/4 c twice per day of the Eukanuba (her original recommendation) and I got him a toy called "Snoggle". I put an extra 1/4 cup inside Snoggle. This put me at ease....

However, when I switched to Earthborn, it says TOTAL of 2 1/4 cups per day which is less than what I was feeding him, but it's grain-free and higher quality so that is to be expected. So now I'm at 1 1/4c in the morning and 1 c at night.

I hope I'm making sense LOL I guess my point is that my breeder opted for feeding lower amounts and recommended a small jump in quantity if I thought he needed it. My vet said the same - if he still seems hungry, give him a little more. I personally want to feed him more because he looks "skinny" to me, but I know he probably is just fine.

I'm a mess, I know.

That actually made plenty of sense, thanks!! And if you're a mess, I'd hate to think what I would be classified *** (I believe the word is "loony") =)

 

[gobronco]

I like to keep my bullies on the lean side. Hasn't made rudy's breeder very happy, but he didn't get the limp his, 10 pound heavier, overweight brother did. He loves to run around the yard and doesn't get winded when I walk him. Mila is lean and mean, probably more athletic than Mimi RIP. Our vet used to bring other bulldogs owners into the room to show Mimi to them to see what a healthy bulldog should look like. Mimi used to run back an forth full speed for 30 to 60 minutes, playing with the dog on the other side of the fence, at 10 years old. Follow your gut. If your bulldog is lethargic he may be eating too much. The true balance for us was somewhere between the vet (his opinion is they should go at their food like they are starving to death) and the breeder (feed them until they are full, like a bulldog is ever full). Feed them good food, watch the energy level and feel for ribs not RIB.

 

[ajwhitt44]

I like to keep my bullies on the lean side. Hasn't made rudy's breeder very happy, but he didn't get the limp his, 10 pound heavier, overweight brother did. He loves to run around the yard and doesn't get winded when I walk him. Mila is lean and mean, probably more athletic than Mimi RIP. Our vet used to bring other bulldogs owners into the room to show Mimi to them to see what a healthy bulldog should look like. Mimi used to run back an forth full speed for 30 to 60 minutes, playing with the dog on the other side of the fence, at 10 years old. Follow your gut. If your bulldog is lethargic he may be eating too much. The true balance for us was somewhere between the vet (his opinion is they should go at their food like they are starving to death) and the breeder (feed them until they are full, like a bulldog is ever full). Feed them good food, watch the energy level and feel for ribs not RIB.

Thanks for your response. Brembo is NOT lethargic, as he goes to puppy daycare some days and others I always have him out and about moving around.

I guess it's indeed good to keep him on the leaner side, so this is what I intend to do. Over the past days I have realized that my breeder is simply stuck in her ways and is not even open to alternative ways of doing things. She wants fat little dogs, fine. I don't.

 

[kazzy220]

You've been given such good advice already .... all I can say is the breeders food is equivalent of feeding your child McDonalds for EVERY singe meal for the entire of it's obviously shortened life. Feeding a good quality food off the 5 or 6* rated list is the same as giving a nutrient and vitamin rich meal for the entire of your childs life.

Plain and simple .... what would you choose??

 

[Libra926]

I got so irritated by what you said about your breeder, I stopped reading about 1/2 way down to have my say.

1) What an awesome and educated breeder you have. She doesn't even know about Fromm? -1 for her!
2) There is plenty of research all over the internet that puts Fromm at the top of the list as one of the best foods to feed, not only dogs, but cats too. For her to say..and start to prep a way out of the breeder health clause causes her to have another negative. So, -2 for her.
3) For her to yell at you, well.........that's just plain bitchy. -3
4) I can guarantee that she is full of poop. I bet that if she was Pinocchio, her nose would be pretty long. I wouldn't believe her at all on any claims of having dogs that always live to 11 and 12 years old. Would she give you reference numbers to previous clients? I bet not. Even if she is a saint and every word that comes out of her mouth is golden.....I bet that not all of her dogs have been healthy. It's a percentage thing. You can be the best breeder in the world and still have a problem or two. Just like a human. You can do every thing right, have all the golden genes in place...but still have a child that isn't completely healthy. Nothing is perfect all the time. -4 for her.
5) The reason she has to feed her puppies more is because she is feeding crap food. You have to feed more because it lacks all the good stuff.
6) A good rule of thumb....if the food is advertised on tv, the manufacture spends more money on pushing sales/selling/advertizing than they do on the quality of the food. A good dog food company chooses the best of all ingredients, chooses the best grades of meat, doesn't include all the fillers and preservatives. A good dog food company doesn't need to spend millions of dollars in pumping up their product via tv. They do well enough by word of mouth. [MENTION=1760]Fontanafox[/MENTION] I work for Costco. There isn't a Costco (at least in the Puget Sound area) that sells Royal Canin. I'd hope Costco would have better sense than to sell that nonsense of a food. (but they do sell Iams, so I guess not)
7) She mistook grain free for no carbs? -1000 for her. She needs the link to this website. She isn't the brightest crayon in the box.

YOU...you are doing everything right. You surpassed her long ago by simply doing your research. Huge kudos to you. You can always turn to the internet and research any and all questions you may have. The great thing is, you don't always have to invest 100% into the first article you read.
You definitely want a second opinion on the elongated pallet issue. My mom has a bulldog that had this done. Chesty was just over a year old when they did it. Chesty's litter mate died from complications of NOT having it done. If his owners would have known that it was an issue....he would probably still be alive today. As it was, he suffocated after too much activity on a normal Washington day. He could not get enough oxygen. So, if you get 2 or 3 opinions and they all say "Do it".....I think I would trust the DVM vs the IDIOT. The DVM has years of schooling to back them up, she doesn't. Sorry if I sound a little put out, cause I am. You seem way more advanced in your knowledge than she does. I think you are doing a wonderful job and she really should have her nose rubbed in something awful for making you second guess your care for your bulldog.

 

[ajwhitt44]

I got so irritated by what you said about your breeder, I stopped reading about 1/2 way down to have my say.

1) What an awesome and educated breeder you have. She doesn't even know about Fromm? -1 for her!
2) There is plenty of research all over the internet that puts Fromm at the top of the list as one of the best foods to feed, not only dogs, but cats too. For her to say..and start to prep a way out of the breeder health clause causes her to have another negative. So, -2 for her.
3) For her to yell at you, well.........that's just plain bitchy. -3
4) I can guarantee that she is full of poop. I bet that if she was Pinocchio, her nose would be pretty long. I wouldn't believe her at all on any claims of having dogs that always live to 11 and 12 years old. Would she give you reference numbers to previous clients? I bet not. Even if she is a saint and every word that comes out of her mouth is golden.....I bet that not all of her dogs have been healthy. It's a percentage thing. You can be the best breeder in the world and still have a problem or two. Just like a human. You can do every thing right, have all the golden genes in place...but still have a child that isn't completely healthy. Nothing is perfect all the time. -4 for her.
5) The reason she has to feed her puppies more is because she is feeding crap food. You have to feed more because it lacks all the good stuff.
6) A good rule of thumb....if the food is advertised on tv, the manufacture spends more money on pushing sales/selling/advertizing than they do on the quality of the food. A good dog food company chooses the best of all ingredients, chooses the best grades of meat, doesn't include all the fillers and preservatives. A good dog food company doesn't need to spend millions of dollars in pumping up their product via tv. They do well enough by word of mouth. @Fontanafox I work for Costco. There isn't a Costco (at least in the Puget Sound area) that sells Royal Canin. I'd hope Costco would have better sense than to sell that nonsense of a food. (but they do sell Iams, so I guess not)
7) She mistook grain free for no carbs? -1000 for her. She needs the link to this website. She isn't the brightest crayon in the box.

YOU...you are doing everything right. You surpassed her long ago by simply doing your research. Huge kudos to you. You can always turn to the internet and research any and all questions you may have. The great thing is, you don't always have to invest 100% into the first article you read.
You definitely want a second opinion on the elongated pallet issue. My mom has a bulldog that had this done. Chesty was just over a year old when they did it. Chesty's litter mate died from complications of NOT having it done. If his owners would have known that it was an issue....he would probably still be alive today. As it was, he suffocated after too much activity on a normal Washington day. He could not get enough oxygen. So, if you get 2 or 3 opinions and they all say "Do it".....I think I would trust the DVM vs the IDIOT. The DVM has years of schooling to back them up, she doesn't. Sorry if I sound a little put out, cause I am. You seem way more advanced in your knowledge than she does. I think you are doing a wonderful job and she really should have her nose rubbed in something awful for making you second guess your care for your bulldog.

PREACH ON!! I think I smiled throughout your entire comment.

Regarding the food -- I have no doubt that I am feeding him a food that is miles above and beyond what the breeder feeds. But after doing more research I discovered that I may be limiting his food just a bit too much. Where as I WAS feeding him a total of 2.25 cups a day, I am going to revert back to my original 3 cups and monitor his weight closely.

I have read and there are 3 schools of thought (for English bulldogs only, NOT applicable to other breeds):

• Let EB eat as much as he would like provided he gets sufficient exercise daily
• Let EB eat as much as he wants in moderation, while closely monitoring weight to ensure no excess gains
• Let EB eat restricted, regimented meals either 2 or 3 times a day

I could go into the details about the reasoning behind each school of thought, but this is the basic jist.

So I am going to go with a mix between the 2nd and 3rd school of thought. I'm going to let him eat a little more, up to 3 cups, while monitoring his weight. I realize that I am feeding him a very high quality food so I do not think I need to go all the way up to 3.5 cups as the breeder recommended.

I've purchased 2 more bags of Fromm: 1 WITH GRAIN, and 1 WITHOUT GRAIN. So long as Brembo is not exhibiting allergic symptoms, I will feed him a good mix of both until I see a reason to change my approach.

As he gets LOTS of exercise, I think this will be a fair approach so long as I monitor his weight closely (any ideas on how to do that without taking him to vet?!)

REGARDING THE SURGERY: When I see the vet again I am going to tell her that unless he's exhibiting a breathing problem, I would not like to proceed with the surgery.

The problem: The vet has told me that she recommends it to most bulldog owners because EBs are a brachycephalic breed (no ****!). This leads me to believe that she doesn't really care whether he NEEDS it or not, as she thinks they ALL need it. So therefore I may be stuck needing a 2nd or 3rd opinion! Anyone know any good vets in southern CT / Westchester NY?! =).

Thanks for all the responses so far. Mods thanks for keeping this in the GENERAL forum. I think this thread can and will be helpful to all.