General Question E-Collar's

[LolasPuppet]

Mother dogs use their mouths to correct the pups. This creates a little painful circumstance when the dog does a certain behavior. So why is it ok for the mother dog to create this circumstance for them, but not me, their new mother, or care taker?

Not that long ago it was also acceptable to hit your kids if they did something really wrong. But we as society evolved to the point where there's mutual and general understanding that it's wrong, even if our natural instincts sometimes tell us to use force when we're really angry.

My point: the fact that mother dogs do a certain thing to their pups, doesn't necessarily mean that's the right thing to do. Maybe it's due to the fact that dogs haven't evolved enough just yet and/or are currently not capable to correct their pups in a different way. However, us humans are very capable of correcting dogs in many much more friendly ways, shouldn't we then be doing that instead?

Let me give you another example, just to illustrate my point: at certain stages of humanity, it was generally accepted that slavery is acceptable. So if some super intelligent alien species came to Earth, would that mean that they could enslave us, since us humans did that to each other? Of course not, and as a super intelligent species, they would know that.

I'm just giving you all something to think about.

 

[LolasPuppet]

But I don't want people thinking I'm a cruel person.

Nobody thinks that, we're just having a debate.
Also, it's definitely very possible that it's not bad for the dog. But it's also possible that it is, maybe not physically, but perhaps psychologically (that's close to impossible for us to know for sure, either way). Or that there maybe are better alternatives.

 

[Emily]

Hello,
I hired a dog trainer & he taught me to use the pinch collar & the E Collar for training. I had the hardest time at first! I am a softy, & Debo is my baby!
The E Collar is so good for off leash training or even just basic manners. Especially for stubborn dogs.
I'll teach you everything the trainer taught me, if you want.

 

[LiLlilly]

Not that long ago it was also acceptable to hit your kids if they did something really wrong. But we as society evolved to the point where there's mutual and general understanding that it's wrong, even if our natural instincts sometimes tell us to use force when we're really angry.

My point: the fact that mother dogs do a certain thing to their pups, doesn't necessarily mean that's the right thing to do. Maybe it's due to the fact that dogs haven't evolved enough just yet and/or are currently not capable to correct their pups in a different way. However, us humans are very capable of correcting dogs in many much more friendly ways, shouldn't we then be doing that instead?

Let me give you another example, just to illustrate my point: at certain stages of humanity, it was generally accepted that slavery is acceptable. So if some super intelligent alien species came to Earth, would that mean that they could enslave us, since us humans did that to each other? Of course not, and as a super intelligent species, they would know that.

I'm just giving you all something to think about.

Hmm...Good point

Allow me to kinda make another example if that's alright. Mother nature also endowed us with opposable thumbs, a much larger brain so we can reason, and solve complex problems. Dogs can't reason like us, so how could anything that they do be wrong? They can't question things that feel natural to them like us humans do. They just live in the moment and DO what comes natural rather then stop and question it. We're able to think very deeply into things, where dogs are much less complex in that regard. Dogs have been around a LOOOONG time, and I'm pretty sure they know what they gotta do.

But obviously there are dogs that learned without natures approach, so sure they can understand our PR concepts to a degree. But not ALL dogs are the SAME. Nor, does everyone have the amount of time/energy/knowledge to train with these methods effectively. Especially in more severe cases like Lilly and the like. Its also a more realistic approach in almost all aspects. We all work, and have lots of stuff to do. I know I can't always be spending 4+ hours a day training her. So this for me is the most logical way of helping her understand what we need from her, and eventually creating a stress free life for her.

I'm totally all for a friendly approach. Like I said all my dogs thus far have done fine that way. But Lilly, is definitely a severe case. I'm actually starting to think that its not so much a fear of outside, but a not knowing how to be outside. I know when Chester was a pup he hated the leash, hated walking, and just wanted to play all day lol. But he had consistent training since he was a pup. Lilly unfortunately never had that. She needs a very firm foundation for her to really grasp what I want because she's distracted so easily. Most dogs do well with food, she does better with feeling.

 

[LiLlilly]

Nobody thinks that, we're just having a debate.
Also, it's definitely very possible that it's not bad for the dog. But it's also possible that it is, maybe not physically, but perhaps psychologically (that's close to impossible for us to know for sure, either way). Or that there maybe are better alternatives.

Lol, ok just making sure..

 

[LolasPuppet]

Hmm...Good point


Allow me to kinda make another example if that's alright. Mother nature also endowed us with opposable thumbs, a much larger brain so we can reason, and solve complex problems. Dogs can't reason like us, so how could anything that they do be wrong? They can't question things that feel natural to them like us humans do. They just live in the moment and DO what comes natural rather then stop and question it. We're able to think very deeply into things, where dogs are much less complex in that regard. Dogs have been around a LOOOONG time, and I'm pretty sure they know what they gotta do.

That's true, however, animals (us humans included) do all kinds of things, but that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to do them. There are many types of animals, who have also been around a LOOOONG time, that eat their own babies (mostly to survive), doesn't mean it's the best way/thing to do. If they were more intelligent, they could definitely find better ways to survive, WITHOUT eating their own babies.

But obviously there are dogs that learned without natures approach, so sure they can understand our concepts to a degree. But not ALL dogs are the SAME. Nor, does everyone have the amount of time/energy/knowledge to do so. Especially in more severe cases like Lilly and the like. Its also a more realistic approach in almost all aspects. We all work, and have lots of stuff to do. I know I can't always be spending 4+ hours a day training her. So this for me is the most logical way of helping her understand what we need from her, and eventually creating a stress free life for her.

That's also true. It's still MUCH better to train her with such a collar, than to have her untrained, ever for her! You're also correct that not everyone has the time/energy/knowledge to use other alternatives. Also, certain situations can be so hard that perhaps even the most gifted trainers couldn't solve them using just the optimal methods.

And that's the good thing of having more evolved brains. We can consider all the facts we can get, different views, all the circumstances and then do the thing that's the best, considering everything. In your situation, using such a collar may very well be the best thing for everyone included, even for Lilly.

Lilly unfortunately never had that. She needs a very firm foundation for her really grasp what I want because she's distracted so easily. Most dogs do well with food, she does better with feeling.

Yeah, if it's either current situation or such a collar, then you most probably should choose the collar.

 

[Vince00]

I watched an episode with a Ceaser on a food aggressive, abused bulldog and the collar worked in this situation and I would use it at that level also.

May be overkill on your situation though, as a lot could be dealt with on daily work and obedience training.

You will have to work on the fears and the way to do that is pushing the mind forward until your over the issue and then rinse and repeat. Not sure how the collar would apply here.


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[LolasPuppet]

Btw., worry not, we can tell by this thread alone that you're very considerate of her feelings and well-being and are surely a great daddy/mommy to her.

 

[PeterPanAndWendy]

Hmm, Pan has never had any issues that required such harsh measures. Don't get me wrong - sometimes he's VERY bull headed.

I would suggest trying to find another method, leave that one for the very last resort. But since I've read that you've already started using it, just don't start depending on it. Remember you attack more bees with sugar than you do with vinegar. Love will get you so much farther.

 

[LiLlilly]

I watched an episode with a Ceaser on a food aggressive, abused bulldog and the collar worked in this situation and I would use it at that level also.

May be overkill on your situation though, as a lot could be dealt with on daily work and obedience training.

You will have to work on the fears and the way to do that is pushing the mind forward until your over the issue and then rinse and repeat. Not sure how the collar would apply here.


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E-Collar's are really used for just about everything minus house breaking. IF that's the method you want to use. It works for her because she can't avoid me anymore by running away when its time to go out. If she does, she gets a correction. So now I call her to the door, and she comes and will walk right out. Also with learning to walk outside I simply would call her from the sidewalk while she was on my porch. If she didn't get up, I gave her a correction, and after two, she got right up and sat next to me! Then I moved to walking, and it just seemed to fall in place. Granted this is only one day of real training, but holy moly what a change. Its basically teaching her to that what I'm trying to get her to do is unavoidable, and something is required of her when I say a certain command. The collar could really apply to anything you want to teach them, so the limits are pretty endless. I also praise her tons when she does it right so she knows there's an annoying reinforcement or a happy one, it's her choice.

 

[LiLlilly]

Hmm, Pan has never had any issues that required such harsh measures. Don't get me wrong - sometimes he's VERY bull headed.

I would suggest trying to find another method, leave that one for the very last resort. But since I've read that you've already started using it, just don't start depending on it. Remember you attack more bees with sugar than you do with vinegar. Love will get you so much farther.

This is in no way harsh...lol.

And Pan is not Lilly...And I DO LOVE her...And she knows it too. It's not like I'm an extremist and making her do 12 hr drills. Very small sessions every day to keep the stress level low, and a low learning curve. I want her to grasp one thing fully before asking for another. Like I said previously she came in and wanted to play as soon as we got back. She in no way held a grudge. And I'm sure Pan doesn't pee and poop inside on a regular basis either...And I'm pretty sure you can walk him outside so you could potty train him...Also, I'm sure your dog was a puppy when you were teaching this and not stubborn and stuck in his ways. As you can see I'm dealing with a lot of dog right now, and I'm most likely going to be getting a new job within a couple weeks so that means less time. I could have been like the three people before me and gave up, but I'm trying something new and ITS WORKING!! So rest assured, she's getting more then enough love, and this in no way means I love my dogs any less then you. Nor does it mean I will get less out of my dog...

 

[PeterPanAndWendy]

Definetely didn't mean to offend you in any way. Nor did I try to infer that you love her less.
I understand your frustration, I'm glad that you found something that works.
Like I said, I've never had to deal with issues this severe.
My advice was simply not to over do it. I can tell you love her, and that you want the best for her.
I'm just not a fan of the shock collars. But if it's working, as it appears from your posts, then thats great.

 

[Vicaroo1000]

They used to call those things "Shock Collars" -- and maybe they were? But E-collars are NOT shock collars; they simply redirect the dog at the exact point where you are redirecting to correct a specific behavior. I've seen them used successfully (on Cesar Millan's show of course) to redirect a food aggressive dog and to train Cesar's own dogs to leave Rattlesnakes alone. There was one episode where they used one on a farm dog that liked to chase tires. The dog had been RUN OVER a gazillion times and persisted in chasing tires on everything on the farm. Dangerous! An E-collar redirected this dog at the MOMENT he was going after the tire. The e-collar is closer to a cell phone on "vibration" than anything archaically shocking.

E-collars are a great tool for "last resort" behavior modification, I think, but should only be used when trained by a professional on how to use them. In the wrong hands, I think they could potentially do more damage than good.

 

[LiLlilly]

Definetely didn't mean to offend you in any way. Nor did I try to infer that you love her less.
I understand your frustration, I'm glad that you found something that works.
Like I said, I've never had to deal with issues this severe.
My advice was simply not to over do it. I can tell you love her, and that you want the best for her.
I'm just not a fan of the shock collars. But if it's working, as it appears from your posts, then thats great.

I just don't like how the collars are considered harsh, and/or cruel to the animal. Sorry if I sounded a little ticked but, it's just getting frustrating having to explain to everyone that it isn't...Not just you guys on here, but my family and neighbors asked me and react like I'm crazy. I had to take it off to ensure them I'm not hurting her. People around my town are super nosey lol. So I apologize for being kinda snappy, but it's just kinda annoying after a while. I guess I got to come to terms that it's a very misunderstood and need to educate people about it. Obviously I'm no expert yet but I've done quite a bit of reading on them and have a good understand of their use. Thanks for your concern, and again sorry for being snippy.

 

[LiLlilly]

They used to call those things "Shock Collars" -- and maybe they were? But E-collars are NOT shock collars; they simply redirect the dog at the exact point where you are redirecting to correct a specific behavior. I've seen them used successfully (on Cesar Millan's show of course) to redirect a food aggressive dog and to train Cesar's own dogs to leave Rattlesnakes alone. There was one episode where they used one on a farm dog that liked to chase tires. The dog had been RUN OVER a gazillion times and persisted in chasing tires on everything on the farm. Dangerous! An E-collar redirected this dog at the MOMENT he was going after the tire. The e-collar is closer to a cell phone on "vibration" than anything archaically shocking.

E-collars are a great tool for "last resort" behavior modification, I think, but should only be used when trained by a professional on how to use them. In the wrong hands, I think they could potentially do more damage than good.

I agree to an extent, but I'm obviously not a professional. Youtube has some GREAT videos that show when/how to correct a dog to get the behavior you desire. Panzerzoo has some cool videos where she uses a speaker box so you can see every time she corrects. Very helpful! So I studied up on as many as I could until I felt confident, and so far I think I'm doing pretty damn good lol. But keep in mind I'm doing very basic stuff like come, sit, stay. And only doing stuff that I completely understand. No experimenting lol. When I'm outside with her I'm working where she's comfortable and just moving forward very slowly. I got her in the road all by doing it at her own speed, and building her confidence so there is no forcing. I really wish you all could have seen her trotting in the road, it was amazing. I almost started to cry a bit because I was so happy to see her comfortable walking next to me. Quite a moment when a dog can overcome something. But she's still got a long way to go, but now I know she can do it. I'm actually going on an interview at a dog boarding/training kennel in a couple of hours. If I get the job hopefully they can give me some more tips and teach me some advanced stuff...Fingers crossed.

And again...I'm sorry if I sounded a little mean in that one post, just got a little frustrated. Good to know there's a lot of nice people on here that just want the best for her too. But please understand that I tried traditional techniques for 4 months straight with little to no progress. I was able to teach her to do some cool stuff like sitting and waiting for food and not touching it until I say "GO EAT!" Which I think is pretty awesome because she'll sit there for 10 min if I don't say it lol. But when it came to going out, noting motivates her. I tried toys, food, and positive reinforcement with no real results...My poor Lilly has some serious issues, but hopefully now I can change all that.