Crate Training Help pls.

[Baxter Tiberius]

[MENTION=860]sheshistory[/MENTION]

Thank you. Great post. Truman is a great name for an EB
You're probably right that EB's don't fit the norm at all. Which is exactly why I love him.
He's smart as all heck, that is extremely obvious already.
He's stubborn as well. But I appreciate the training he's giving me in the patience department. I need it.
I just want to be sure the actions I take are being understood by him.

I did read tonight that you are *not* supposed to crate dogs that are under 9 weeks of age *because* they have to urinate 10-15 times a day.
They are not old enough to handle it yet. Bax is only 8.3 weeks old right now.
Really appreciate everyone's input. I guess my biggest stress was that I wasn't taking proper steps, and therefore wasn't improving his chances of success.

-Kevin

 

[Ashleym]

Oh and did you say how old Baxter is? Just curious...I might have missed it.

I think in another post Baxter is 8 weeks old. He just got the puppy last week. I agree with [MENTION=860]sheshistory[/MENTION] bulldogs are very different from other breeds my other dog is a lab and he lives to please us took 2 days to potty train him vs the 4 months with Fergus.

When we catch Fergus being bad he just briefly looks up and then continues being a naughty boy. Once they are trained they are the most funniest and lovable dogs I like to say they are clowns on 4 legs.

Just keep on doing what you are doing eventually he will get it. When he does use the patch of grass or the potty pad make sure you celebrate with praise and treats.

 

[Baxter Tiberius]

When we catch Fergus being bad he just briefly looks up and then continues being a naughty boy.

[MENTION=8050]Ashleym[/MENTION] I've heard about their stubbornness. How do you win that interaction? Is there a technique to asserting dominance with them?

 

[JAKEISGREAT]

I'm sorry, I'm so very late! My method will be tough in a high rise, but the elements can certainly be adapted to a "potty area" outside.

First of all, I have to disagree with 9 weeks is the minimum, for crate training. Jake was 8 weeks and did fine. In fact, Jake was the easiest pup I ever had. No..not 1 accident! But I later realized, that's because I was the real one being trained!

During the day...out every hour. And after eating and playing. Try to take them to the same area. Their own scents will encourage going potty.

Put him on a leash, in the house..at all times. Watch him like a hawk. If you see signs he is THINKING of going..a gentle but firm tug on the lead..AND your best firm NO word. Pick him up and immediately head to his "area". If and WHEN he goes..heap praise on him. Then back in and remain on the leash. If you need to do something without him attached to you..lol...take him to pee..then right in the crate. When you are ready to get him out, back out to pee and on the leash.

No more than 2 hours in crate during the day...until he is a few months. Then 3-4. At night, he will have to go out the last thing and in 3-4 hours again. I used to let Jake out at about 11 pm..then at 2 am and at 5:30 am.

As you can see..he will be making many trips out to pee. The trick is NOT relaxing and letting him roam. You will think like him in a few days..lol..be consistent and in a couple weeks, you will see a big improvement. God Luck!

 

[Ashleym]

@Ashleym I've heard about their stubbornness. How do you win that interaction? Is there a technique to asserting dominance with them?

Im not the best person to answer that question. When it comes to puppies that young I tend to be a ball of mush. Luckily Fergus accepted me as alpha except when he really wants to be bad like putting something in his mouth or is chewing on something he isnt supposed to then I just say no drop it if he doesnt obey I just end up digging it out of his mouth. [MENTION=2614]Vicaroo1000[/MENTION] might be able to answer that question for you.

 

[Baxter Tiberius]

If you see signs he is THINKING of going..a gentle but firm tug on the lead..AND your best firm NO word. Pick him up and immediately head to his "area".

@JAKEISGREAT
Have done this *so*many*times* and with Baxter it does not work. He ignores "no" if he's about to leak. It just comes. Even if I catch him squatting to poop, and pick him up before anything comes out, and bring him to the potty spot, he will not go. Once he's been interrupted and carried, he arrives at the destination and won't go.

He only goes when he is roaming around by himself. That is what I am learning. This makes it literally impossible to train him.

I finally got the grass square in the mail. I thought all my problems would be over. He always pooped and pee'd on the grass a block away. It had been 3 full hours of no urinating or poo. So I took him to his grass. He looked at me, and slinked away, off the grass. Into his bed nearby. I walk into the hallway to get some clothes out of the dryer. I hear him exiting the playpen area through the doggy door. I walk into the room. He's 10 feet away from the grass square, on the hardwood floor, peeing a huge puddle of pee.

I don't understand this at all. This is beyond frustrating. This is pretty much how it always goes with him.

Earlier today the same thing. He hadn't gone in several hours. I put him on the grass. Nothing. Just looked at me and tried to sneak away. I take him out onto the balcony and walk around for a bit. Its a long balcony.
I look back and he's pooping on the balcony tile. No less than a minute after I put him on the grass. Repeat this all ... day ... long. I simply am at a loss as to what I am supposed to do.

Usually dogs have a pattern. That's the entire reason the "Dog Whisperer" succeeds. Psychology has patterns in humans, and in animals. There's something you can rely on, and work to manipulate so that good results come. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to this.

He only goes when he's left alone.
He refuses to go when he's asked to.
He wont go where you suggest he go.
He'll walk 10 feet away and go there instead.

How can you train him when this is the situation?

Kevin

 

[JAKEISGREAT]

Ohhhhh Kevin. You have a very stubborn Bully. And he obviously doesn't care for the grass ..If you don't mind, I will copy this post and share with my sister. She is a professional dog trainer and belongs to a forum of other trainers. Let's see what they might come up with. It does take her a bit to get back to me..but she will. One stubborn wee pup can't beat ALL of us.. Hang in there..
[MENTION=9462]Baxter Tiberius[/MENTION]

 

[Baxter Tiberius]

I just updated it and wordsmithed it a little bit. To make it more clear. Maybe you can send her the current version of the above post. @JAKEISGREAT

Edit: I just had a thought. Is it possible he has now associated the potty pad / grass square (in same location) with punishment? That's where I bring him every time he pees. Now when I bring him there, he looks at me like he has done something wrong, and crawls into his bed nearby and sulks. Just like he did when he was actually in trouble. Maybe I have created an association with punishment and the potty pad. Maybe I need to somehow insist that he goes on the grass and then give him a treat. I don't know. Its funny they say dont associate the crate with punishment, or the carrier with punishment, yet you can associate the potty pad with punishment. Isn't it possible that would backfire?

I have noticed when I take him there half the time he lays down. He obviously thinks I just want him to "go there". He seems to have no clue I want him to "pee there". So now he lays on the potty pad like its his designated spot. Clearly there is confusion and miscommunication going on. Thats the frustrating thing for me. I know he doesn't understand any of this.

 

[JAKEISGREAT]

I just updated it and wordsmithed it a little bit. To make it more clear. Maybe you can send her the current version of the above post. @JAKEISGREAT

Edit: I just had a thought. Is it possible he has now associated the potty pad / grass square (in same location) with punishment? That's where I bring him every time he pees. Now when I bring him there, he looks at me like he has done something wrong, and crawls into his bed nearby and sulks. Just like he did when he was actually in trouble. Maybe I have created an association with punishment and the potty pad. Maybe I need to somehow insist that he goes on the grass and then give him a treat. I don't know. Its funny they say dont associate the crate with punishment, or the carrier with punishment, yet you can associate the potty pad with punishment. Isn't it possible that would backfire?

I have noticed when I take him there half the time he lays down. He obviously thinks I just want him to "go there". He seems to have no clue I want him to "pee there". So now he lays on the potty pad like its his designated spot. Clearly there is confusion and miscommunication going on. Thats the frustrating thing for me. I know he doesn't understand any of this.

I was thinking the exact same thing! The slinking is what made me think he might think he's in trouble.. Maybe he would prefer real sod grass? It would be a hassle for a month or so..but maybe you can plant a patch of real sod..he did use rel grass before..he could be holding out for what he likes.

I will send this to my sis tonight.

 

[Baxter Tiberius]

Yeah this is real sod grass. Oh well. I think this may just end up being a process of dealing with the nonsense until he matures a little, and things start to click.
I truly, genuinely believe at this stage he has absolutely no understanding of what I am trying to teach him.
He is probably too young to get it.
And when that is the case, there is no training happening.
Its just repeated confusing acts by his owner, that one day, as he grows up, may "click" in his head finally.
I don't know.

I took him downstairs when I knew he had to go. I allowed him to walk on the leash behind me most of the way.
We were headed out to the patch of grass down the street. We didn't make it to the front door before he squats and starts pooping, as I was still walking forward.
I pick him up before it comes out, and carry him.
He poops anyways, and it flies onto the stairs in my building lobby.

Never even made it outside. When we got there?
He had absolutely no desire to go to the bathroom.
Just rolled around in the grass and played.

:-/

 

[Lokismom]

This might sound a little weird but when he does poop or pee where he is not supposed to go clean it up or bag it up and bring him with his "business" to where he should be going and put it down where he can see it, obviously this works better when he can smell that this is what I am supposed to do out here instead of just playing. Another idea is maybe make outside potty time and inside play time until he gets a little better at understanding the concept. Bullies have OCD tendencies so putting him on a strict schedule will help a ton! Like others have said set and alarm for when you need to go out something that is a different tone then your morning wake up alarm. When Loki was younger we had a whistle alarm that we used so we could go out, I think that him hearing "his" alarm also helped something click. Be patient he will get it just takes some time. Hopefully [MENTION=2092]JAKEISGREAT[/MENTION] 's sister can come up with ideas for you guys as well. hang in there

 

[Baxter Tiberius]

Geez. THis just seems so incredibly complex. There are so many good suggestions. But to implement them all seems like it would take a rocket scientist. Seriously this is extremely, extremely complicated. I have had puppies before ... it was always an issue of "oops he had an accident in the house". Once or twice a day, maybe.

Today was a better day. I kept him in his carrier next to my feet while I worked from home. He slept. I took him out every hour. Im noticing that he doesn't really go when Im there. He goes when he's free to wander on his own. Just to complicate this even more.

He did go on the patch of grass which is now out on the balcony. He got treats and praise. He did a #2 there as well, which I was very excited about. The only reason he didn't do all of this on my living room floor was because I have been putting him in "jail" the entire time he's not out to pee and play.

Then I had to take a shower. If I put him in his carrier without being there, he will go ape sh*t crazy screaming and freaking out. So I made the decision to take a quick shower while he was in the living room.

Walking to my bedroom he peed on my floor. I took him out to the patch of grass. He looked up at me clueless, and laid down on the grass.

I showered, came back out, pee accident on the floor again.

I made food for him, and walked it to the other room as he followed. Halfway there, he peed on the floor again.

I mean seriously. We're talking all within 15 minutes grand total.

No point in taking him to the patch of grass. He just lays down or walks off of it. He already went to the bathroom moments before.

See its when he's wandering around that his mind seems to immediately go towards evacuating. When I am there watching, or waiting, he does nothing.

Lastly, there's the whole "Dog wont pee in his sleeping space" thing. Wrong. Even in his carrier, with me right there, he peed inside it right on his towel underneath him.

Again, the only thing I can think is that as he grows up, he will mature. And with that maturity, change will come. Everything in between seems to be a lot of emotionally draining effort for me. And he seems fairly clueless.

 

[JAKEISGREAT]

Geez. THis just seems so incredibly complex. There are so many good suggestions. But to implement them all seems like it would take a rocket scientist. Seriously this is extremely, extremely complicated. I have had puppies before ... it was always an issue of "oops he had an accident in the house". Once or twice a day, maybe.

Today was a better day. I kept him in his carrier next to my feet while I worked from home. He slept. I took him out every hour. Im noticing that he doesn't really go when Im there. He goes when he's free to wander on his own. Just to complicate this even more.

He did go on the patch of grass which is now out on the balcony. He got treats and praise. He did a #2 there as well, which I was very excited about. The only reason he didn't do all of this on my living room floor was because I have been putting him in "jail" the entire time he's not out to pee and play.

Then I had to take a shower. If I put him in his carrier without being there, he will go ape sh*t crazy screaming and freaking out. So I made the decision to take a quick shower while he was in the living room.

Walking to my bedroom he peed on my floor. I took him out to the patch of grass. He looked up at me clueless, and laid down on the grass.

I showered, came back out, pee accident on the floor again.

I made food for him, and walked it to the other room as he followed. Halfway there, he peed on the floor again.

I mean seriously. We're talking all within 15 minutes grand total.

No point in taking him to the patch of grass. He just lays down or walks off of it. He already went to the bathroom moments before.

See its when he's wandering around that his mind seems to immediately go towards evacuating. When I am there watching, or waiting, he does nothing.

Lastly, there's the whole "Dog wont pee in his sleeping space" thing. Wrong. Even in his carrier, with me right there, he peed inside it right on his towel underneath him.

Again, the only thing I can think is that as he grows up, he will mature. And with that maturity, change will come. Everything in between seems to be a lot of emotionally draining effort for me. And he seems fairly clueless.

No free roaming..this is imperative. And NO bedding in crate. I think you think..you are covering the basics..but honestly, you are giving him room to screw up. Apeshit crazy in the crate..lol...let him. It's like a temper tantrum with a 2 year old. Reread my post from last night. NO roaming..in crate when not on leash. Add NO bedding..out every hour..etc.. He will probably still have an accident or two, but your frustration level will be much better...and you will be on your way to a happy house.

 

[Lisabear123]

I agree w Jakeisgreat on this one. Def clean all his pee'd/pooped on areas w natures miracle or something else that kills the enzymes of their scent. then start again..He needs to be put on a housebreaking schedule w a crate. Everyone's schedule is different, but if you are home w him, walk him first thing, feed n water, then walk, play a bit, then walk..then crate for a cpl hours. Take out for walk, feed n water, walk, play, walk, back in crate for cpl hours, take out n walk, feed n water, walk, play, walk etc..leave him out with you for about an hour and forty five min each time, then crate. As he gets older you can give him more roam as well as increase crate time. I wouldn't leave water down all the time, if you are, give it to him at specific times throughout the day. When Brie was 8 weeks to about 4 months I got no sleep cos I took her out about every 2-3 hours throughout the night til her bladder developed a bit more. She was really good about growling n letting me know she had to go tho so it made that easier. She stayed in her crate at night. When she was about 6 mos, I started letting her sleep w me cos she was sleeping all night. I crate her during the day if I need to go out but usually not if more thn 3-4 hours at a time. I don't know if any of this will help you, but I figured I would share my experience.

 

[Baxter Tiberius]

Well we had a bit of an improvement today.

It was the first morning I had woken up and poop was not smeared literally all over himself, and the entire playpen area.

I spent the whole day yesterday training him on the patch of grass on the balcony. I decided to bring it in to his playpen area, and put down a lot of white paper around it.

I realized he was associating peeing & pooping with "ruglike surfaces" thanks to the potty pads. I remembered as a child my mom would newspaper the playpen area, and they'd never feel comfortable going on the carpet.

They'd always look for a paper surface.

At the suggestion of a puppy trainer on another site, I am going to get some "butchers paper" (long wide sheets) instead of using computer paper taped

I guess the training on the grass worked because this is what I woke up to, today. (picture the entire area you see smeared in crap yesterday morning)

Im proud of him.