What is prompting these fights?

minibull

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We adopted 5-year old Winston about a month ago. 4-year old Buttercup has never been good with other dogs, but Winston needed a home and we hoped things would be different with an EB. We were wrong. We've worked with a trainer and are doing Nothing in Life is Free mostly with good results. They take walks, baths, get treats, go potty, and run to bark at outside noises together. They don't fight over food.

We've eliminated most fights except one recurring pattern. I'd like to better understand what's going on because I just don't get it:

Any time we're giving Buttercup focused hugs/attention or lap time she stiffens up and starts growling at Winston if he's in the room. Then it's game on and I have to pull them off of each other. I don't see any evidence that Winston is doing *anything* to start these fights, though I wonder if I'm missing some signal from him. The stiffening/growling really do seem to start with Buttercup every single time.

Our trainer suggested we spend time loving and petting each dog while the other one stays in the crate. I tried it today and Buttercup stiffened up and growled while I pet her. I had to clang muffin tins to break her focus. At least Winston was in the crate so no fighting ensued. We'll see how it works out but I am super tired of breaking up fights and not being able to pet my own dogs when both are present.

They're both intact and we are planning to spay and neuter but I'm worried it won't be enough. They don't play together and I'm starting to seriously consider rehoming but we adore them both.
 

2BullyMama

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Are you in anyway tense, anticipating the behavior or nervous? If yes, then which ever you are petting is picking up on this and feeling the need to protect you from the other. Is that possible?

We had similar issues with Banks, her and Nitschke were just like your two and on a whim she would full on attack him for no reason--- she ended up being a 9 yr training session, could not let her have an inch or her beeotchyness would kick in


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ddnene

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I completely agree w/@2BullyMama … if they even sense an issue, they are going to react on it. I would say get a trainer involved and see if they can give you some insight.
 
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minibull

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Are you in anyway tense, anticipating the behavior or nervous? If yes, then which ever you are petting is picking up on this and feeling the need to protect you from the other. Is that possible?

We had similar issues with Banks, her and Nitschke were just like your two and on a whim she would full on attack him for no reason--- she ended up being a 9 yr training session, could not let her have an inch or her beeotchyness would kick in

I completely agree w/@2BullyMama … if they even sense an issue, they are going to react on it. I would say get a trainer involved and see if they can give you some insight.

Are you in anyway tense, anticipating the behavior or nervous? If yes, then which ever you are petting is picking up on this and feeling the need to protect you from the other. Is that possible?

We had similar issues with Banks, her and Nitschke were just like your two and on a whim she would full on attack him for no reason--- she ended up being a 9 yr training session, could not let her have an inch or her beeotchyness would kick in

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9 year training session...oh my goodness I do not look forward to that! And she was spayed, wasn't she? How did you guys handle that?!

I don't think I'm getting tense, but maybe she is being protective. I sort of wonder if she's labeling me as "MINE!" I want to convey to her that I have a relationship with both dogs and I do not belong to her. I forgot to ask our trainer about it but will ask at our next class.

We figured out this pattern after fights started a few times when my husband was sitting on the floor happily petting Buttercup with Winston halfway across the room (and in these cases dad did not make Buttercup work for the love as we try to do with Nothing in Life is Free). The last fight happened after a particularly great session with our trainer in our home. Dogs got along great! After that session I brought them to the pet store and they waited in the car without me while I picked up takeout. I kept an eye on them through the window and there were no tussles.

Just before the last fight occurred Buttercup climbed up on my lap. I should not have let her as she was not invited, but I thought it would be fine given the evening we'd had. I've also worked pretty hard to be extra calm when we're all together and it has paid off in very few fights when I am alone with them compared to when both my husband and me are present. I've also gotten to the point where I can pull them apart without yelling or getting worked up because I'm used to it.

If only I could keep them occupied with tasks and orders I think they'd be fine, but I have to live my life, too. Buttercup is very interested in sniffing Winston's private parts (and last time I let her do this without re-directing her focus she started fights) so I pray the spay and neuter will help, but that girl really is something else in just about every way. We adore her, but she is so much more work than Winston in all respects and her scrappiness is wearing thin on me.
 

2BullyMama

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Man, buttercup is Banks. Yes, she was spayed at 6 mths and it did nothing-- it is just who she was and how she was wired. Banks was not allowed to do anything without being told (furniture, food, going out the door) everything with her had to be monitored or she would take the 10 miles we gave her. She was hell in wheels and I'd give anything to have her back... I learned so much from her and the challenge really gave me patience i never thought I would have.... most important is all humans in home have to be consistent-- if not, she will not balance and will always react as she is


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Manydogs

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[MENTION=12744]minibull[/MENTION] It sounds to me like Buttercup it totally possesive and jealous. As you had left them alone in the car-you said they were fine. Buttercup had no reason to start a fight. I know you have a trainer, but maybe you should try giving neither one much attention for awhile. Just feed,water,and necessities, but no on the couch, no sitting on the floor with them-no petting for awhile. I believe that her jealousy is the problem as it seems Winston does not start the fights.
 
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minibull

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@minibull It sounds to me like Buttercup it totally possesive and jealous. As you had left them alone in the car-you said they were fine. Buttercup had no reason to start a fight. I know you have a trainer, but maybe you should try giving neither one much attention for awhile. Just feed,water,and necessities, but no on the couch, no sitting on the floor with them-no petting for awhile. I believe that her jealousy is the problem as it seems Winston does not start the fights.

Thanks for this. I think you are right! They both sleep in crates now (no bed). No more lap time for them or floor time for us.

Our trainer thought Buttercup should get used to us petting Winston so she can learn that she doesn't own us and that she can't control our relationship with him. She recommended they each get crate time while we pet and love the other.

What do you think about us doing that in controlled situations (e.g., her in her crate while we pet him)? Or do you think a period of neutral time before we start that would help?
 

Manydogs

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[MENTION=12744]minibull[/MENTION] You are paying a trainer and I don't want to interfere, but I would do a period of neutral time. Right now I believe since Buttercup is "revved up",she would be in her crate just fuming seeing you giving him attention. You might try a time out for each in the crate-one at a time,but no petting or display of attention.When they are both out,give neither one special attention. Those are just my thoughts.
 
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minibull

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@minibull You are paying a trainer and I don't want to interfere, but I would do a period of neutral time. Right now I believe since Buttercup is "revved up",she would be in her crate just fuming seeing you giving him attention. You might try a time out for each in the crate-one at a time,but no petting or display of attention.When they are both out,give neither one special attention. Those are just my thoughts.

That's a great point. She did fume the one time we tried it. Right now maybe we just need to keep them in a relative truce. I think they're ok in all areas where humans are not involved so it seems prudent to try it that way for a while. They actually do very well living in tandem with each other, but my gut tells me WE are the problem, particularly since they fight much less when I maintain my authoritative role and much more when daddy gets on the floor and gives hugs.

Will update as time passes. Thanks again.
 
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minibull

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So since we started our efforts Buttercup's jealousy and fight-picking have only worsened. They had two particularly bad fights this weekend and we had to visit the vet to treat a bite abscess. Now they are unable to even be in the same room without Buttercup starting her stiffen-up-and-growl routine. We're keeping them separate now as I'm afraid of what more could happen.

So we are looking to re-home sweet Winston. We're putting out feelers in our area but I will likely also post him on this site. I'm eager to get him into the right place before he sustains any further physical or emotional scars from his experience with us. Vet told us it would take a few months before spaying and neutering begin to help -- and now that they've established a negative pattern it might persist. I don't think I can keep them both safe for two more months now that Buttercup is so riled up.

I feel just terrible that we couldn't give him a wonderful home and also feel it's unfair to both of them to try to keep them together when they clearly don't get along.
 

Manydogs

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So sad to hear this news,but you have done your best. Some dogs just won't accept another dog on their turf.
 

2BullyMama

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So sorry it came ti this, i can feel your pain in the post. You have done all you could, and are making the best decision for all of you. Sending lots of hugs to you all.


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1Chumly

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So sorry to hear this. We had to re-home one of our dogs once because of fights. It is very distressing but is often the only solution for the safety of everyone involved.
 

RiiSi

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I'm so sorry it has to be this way. But sometimes it's for the best for everybody.
 
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minibull

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@2BullyMama [MENTION=13737]1Chumly[/MENTION] @RiiSi [MENTION=8741]Manydogs[/MENTION]

Thanks to all of you for your kind words. I sometimes catch myself thinking maybe we won't have to rehome but then Buttercup growls and I realize it's for the best as you say.

Now I understand all those adoption posts that say "She needs to be the only dog in the home." I'm at the point where I wonder if Buttercup would tolerate a baby in the house! Probably won't be an issue, but something to consider if we do end up having a kid.

Thanks again for your support. Big lesson learned here after some heartbreak.
 

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