Advice needed....MY behaviour!

[Petra]

Haha thanks [MENTION=959]kazzy220[/MENTION], there is a chance of that happening

 

[Vicaroo1000]

Wonder how it's going? *checking in*

It's awfully self aware to realize that YOU are the problem in your pack. So many Cesar episodes where this is the case and the human does not want to see it. Remember that episode with Rocky the Chihuahua? All of the problem was with the "mom" and when she realized this (after Cesar threatened to leave) everything changed for the better.

It's hard not to share anxious / nervous energy when you are expecting a fight / trouble. Try to picture how the PERFECT MEETING would go and make that happen. Call upon your most calm and assertive self to "rule" over your pack! Are you Queen Victoria or perhaps Elizabeth Taylor or even Oprah? Channel your inner supreme being! Your dogs will appreciate it; they like to know where their place is in the pack === that is, they want balance.

 

[Momma2Bullies]

Wonder how it's going? *checking in*

It's awfully self aware to realize that YOU are the problem in your pack. So many Cesar episodes where this is the case and the human does not want to see it. Remember that episode with Rocky the Chihuahua? All of the problem was with the "mom" and when she realized this (after Cesar threatened to leave) everything changed for the better.

It's hard not to share anxious / nervous energy when you are expecting a fight / trouble. Try to picture how the PERFECT MEETING would go and make that happen. Call upon your most calm and assertive self to "rule" over your pack! Are you Queen Victoria or perhaps Elizabeth Taylor or even Oprah? Channel your inner supreme being! Your dogs will appreciate it; they like to know where their place is in the pack === that is, they want balance.

Thank you! I am just about to post the update - I spent the entire plane ride ( 5 hours) visualizing my entrance and thinking of Cesar LOL!!!!

 

[Momma2Bullies]

UPDATE: Advice needed....MY behaviour!

Hi everyone!

Well, I need your input once again... here is the update!

I arrived home at abut 5pm local time. I had considered everyone's advice (that you so much!), I spent the plane ride reading the Monks of New Skete books (thanks again [MENTION=8699]GoldenRod[/MENTION]!), remembering everything from Cesar, and really visualizing my entrance. In the car I talked to my BF about how we were going to go in - let him in first to calm the dogs, etc. Then I came in. It was very sweet to see them look surprised to see me, then excited, but I walked past them and brought my bags into the kitchen and let them sniff my feet (haha gross!). They were actually pretty calm, just looking up at me with little nubby tails wagging!

Then I greeted them, and it was fine... I felt pretty good about things. They actually seemed to get over me pretty quick and just wanted to smell my suitcase. So I felt this was pretty good. We kept things as they had been, my BF has clearly taken excellent care of them and they looked fantastic (I was so impressed - this was the longest I have ever been away from the dogs, and it is a big deal for me to "trust" anyone (yes, even him, I am ashamed to say) with them, so this is very good!

He gave them dinner, as he had been the past 2 weeks, and then he gave "dessert" (one extra kibble each LOL), BIG FIGHT broke out. I was way over at the sink drying dishes. I wasn't talking or even close to them. I was just there.
G (my BF) was shocked... this was the first incident in 2 weeks.

As the evening went on, there was another fight (Wilbur seemed cranky, and Layla seemed to want to give him a tune up). Again, I wasn't around for that one.

Then in the bedroom, they were both in their beds, I asked G what he was watching and BOOM, a big fight again, and I didn't even see why ( I thought they were actually asleep).

Needless to say I devastated. I had been back for 4 hours and there had been 3 fights. We are really trying to figure it out, because it is obvious that even though I might not be "doing" anything, I am clearly upsetting the dynamic.

I 100% know that I am the problem.... I tried to be my most calm-assertive self, yet even when I wasn't in the room there were incidents. This is really breaking my heart.

HELP!!!

 

[Momma2Bullies]

Re: UPDATE: Advice needed....MY behaviour!

Hi everyone!

Well, I need your input once again... here is the update!

I arrived home at abut 5pm local time. I had considered everyone's advice (that you so much!), I spent the plane ride reading the Monks of New Skete books (thanks again @GoldenRod!), remembering everything from Cesar, and really visualizing my entrance. In the car I talked to my BF about how we were going to go in - let him in first to calm the dogs, etc. Then I came in. It was very sweet to see them look surprised to see me, then excited, but I walked past them and brought my bags into the kitchen and let them sniff my feet (haha gross!). They were actually pretty calm, just looking up at me with little nubby tails wagging!

Then I greeted them, and it was fine... I felt pretty good about things. They actually seemed to get over me pretty quick and just wanted to smell my suitcase. So I felt this was pretty good. We kept things as they had been, my BF has clearly taken excellent care of them and they looked fantastic (I was so impressed - this was the longest I have ever been away from the dogs, and it is a big deal for me to "trust" anyone (yes, even him, I am ashamed to say) with them, so this is very good!

He gave them dinner, as he had been the past 2 weeks, and then he gave "dessert" (one extra kibble each LOL), BIG FIGHT broke out. I was way over at the sink drying dishes. I wasn't talking or even close to them. I was just there.
G (my BF) was shocked... this was the first incident in 2 weeks.

As the evening went on, there was another fight (Wilbur seemed cranky, and Layla seemed to want to give him a tune up). Again, I wasn't around for that one.

Then in the bedroom, they were both in their beds, I asked G what he was watching and BOOM, a big fight again, and I didn't even see why ( I thought they were actually asleep).

Needless to say I devastated. I had been back for 4 hours and there had been 3 fights. We are really trying to figure it out, because it is obvious that even though I might not be "doing" anything, I am clearly upsetting the dynamic.

I 100% know that I am the problem.... I tried to be my most calm-assertive self, yet even when I wasn't in the room there were incidents. This is really breaking my heart.

HELP!!!

 

[2BullyMama]

Re: UPDATE: Advice needed....MY behaviour!

I was away for the weekend and just saw this. So sorry they regressed in behavior... it might be a good idea to have a trainer come to the home to work with you and the pups. it is obvious the pups are feeding off of something you are not consciously aware of. Taking them to a trainer or a class will not tell you the issue, the trainer needs to observe what takes place at the home

 

[Vince00]

I suspect there is a interruption in the chain of command when you are in the picture. The Dogs are confused who is the leader in the four pack and are trying to establish themselves as well.

Have you tried increasing the physical excerise and stimulation for the dogs while working through this? Doing so will give you the ability to command, control and show them who is boss at every chance possible. In addition to showing them that YOU are in charge and they have no need to decide for themselves both you and your husband can knock them back a few rungs on the latter.

If you can establish who is the more dominate of the two, maybe this has changed due to health, age, or some other issue and the lesser dominate of the two feels he can step above but is getting met with a fight instead of allowing that to happen. Again by picking up on the signs and being able to separate and control the red zone before it happens will be key. And a tired happy dog will be easier for this as well.

You can try to look up DSA "Dominance Status Aggression" and maybe that will help as it may be what your dealing with.
http://petdoctormom.wordpress.com/tag/dominance-status-aggression/

Hopefully you can go back to the basics, establish a chain of command, show them who is boss on a daily basis with everything from feeding, excersise, what they can and can't do and trying to pick up on the dominance between the two to find the trigger.

If I think of more I will try help but I really am guessing and cannot speak as an expert on the subject by any means.

 

[Sherry]

I wish I could say theres a magic word to use or a look you're not noticing, but I can't. In my honest opinion I believe they can smell your anxiousness. Your tension in your neck or movements expecting them to react to each other. they do watch every vibe you carry, good or bad. I really believe you don't even know you are doing it. I have this problem with my husband, he walks in the house, Peggy goes after Jack. Jack will bark like a madman most of the night unless I get real stern and pissed. I don't feel like getting pissed cause hubby is overly anxious to see them or is just a tad bit hyper during the day. I walk all five at the same time, while he has trouble with two. He allows them to be the lead. One will go in one direction and one will go the other direction. Crazy
If it were me, I'd just walk out the door the next time they get into it. "that's it I had enough" !!!! might not be a good thing to do???? but you might get an answer.

 

[Vicaroo1000]

Good stuff here.
[MENTION=4305]Vince00[/MENTION] is talking about leadership rituals -- so important when reaffirming your position as the pack leader. I'm running late now but I am going to go check out that link, Vince!
[MENTION=1714]Sherry[/MENTION] - your experience is so valuable here!

 

[Momma2Bullies]

Thanks guys! I think you're spot-on. I struggle with anxiety and depression, I fully admit that I am 100% not the most confident person. I am very likely over-thinking every move I make, and then I am hyper-aware that I am over-thinking my over-thinking, and it must be ridiculous for my dogs. I know they can read everything.
I am not ashamed to tell you that this all coincided with being diagnosed with severe depression in the fall , and as a result I have been home 24/7. The fighting started right around then. I know it is due to my instability. I am doing better now, but even on my best days I am sure the dogs can sense this within me. They have been my salvation and I truly believe they literally saved my life, and it is wrenching my heart to see that I am projecting something that causes Wilbur and Layla even a moment of distress or confusion.

I am hopeful that as I continue to get well, this will gradually end. I hope that since they are turning 2 next week this is also an age thing with them and it will settle down.

We have been considering bringing a trainer in as well, because they need to see the home dynamic.

Thank you so much for your input - I really appreciate it!

 

[2BullyMama]

Thanks guys! I think you're spot-on. I struggle with anxiety and depression, I fully admit that I am 100% not the most confident person. I am very likely over-thinking every move I make, and then I am hyper-aware that I am over-thinking my over-thinking, and it must be ridiculous for my dogs. I know they can read everything.
I am not ashamed to tell you that this all coincided with being diagnosed with severe depression in the fall , and as a result I have been home 24/7. The fighting started right around then. I know it is due to my instability. I am doing better now, but even on my best days I am sure the dogs can sense this within me. They have been my salvation and I truly believe they literally saved my life, and it is wrenching my heart to see that I am projecting something that causes Wilbur and Layla even a moment of distress or confusion.

I am hopeful that as I continue to get well, this will gradually end. I hope that since they are turning 2 next week this is also an age thing with them and it will settle down.

We have been considering bringing a trainer in as well, because they need to see the home dynamic.

Thank you so much for your input - I really appreciate it!

we may be slow in response at times.. but we are all here to help or tag a member that can help. Good luck and please keep us posted

 

[Sherry]

Thanks guys! I think you're spot-on. I struggle with anxiety and depression, I fully admit that I am 100% not the most confident person. I am very likely over-thinking every move I make, and then I am hyper-aware that I am over-thinking my over-thinking, and it must be ridiculous for my dogs. I know they can read everything.
I am not ashamed to tell you that this all coincided with being diagnosed with severe depression in the fall , and as a result I have been home 24/7. The fighting started right around then. I know it is due to my instability. I am doing better now, but even on my best days I am sure the dogs can sense this within me. They have been my salvation and I truly believe they literally saved my life, and it is wrenching my heart to see that I am projecting something that causes Wilbur and Layla even a moment of distress or confusion.

I am hopeful that as I continue to get well, this will gradually end. I hope that since they are turning 2 next week this is also an age thing with them and it will settle down.

We have been considering bringing a trainer in as well, because they need to see the home dynamic.

Thank you so much for your input - I really appreciate it!

awwww sweetie (((((hugs))))) life is crazy and you're just trying to make things better is 1000 times better than not caring about it, I won't mention any names. but I'm married to him LOL he thinks I'm nuts pshhttt his baby talk is enough to drive me off the edge when the dogs go wild. relax, things will get better, you are surrounded by us , anything anytime

 

[Vicaroo1000]

Thanks guys! I think you're spot-on. I struggle with anxiety and depression, I fully admit that I am 100% not the most confident person. I am very likely over-thinking every move I make, and then I am hyper-aware that I am over-thinking my over-thinking, and it must be ridiculous for my dogs. I know they can read everything.
I am not ashamed to tell you that this all coincided with being diagnosed with severe depression in the fall , and as a result I have been home 24/7. The fighting started right around then. I know it is due to my instability. I am doing better now, but even on my best days I am sure the dogs can sense this within me. They have been my salvation and I truly believe they literally saved my life, and it is wrenching my heart to see that I am projecting something that causes Wilbur and Layla even a moment of distress or confusion.

I am hopeful that as I continue to get well, this will gradually end. I hope that since they are turning 2 next week this is also an age thing with them and it will settle down.

We have been considering bringing a trainer in as well, because they need to see the home dynamic.

Thank you so much for your input - I really appreciate it!

Would you mind trying something for me? It's along the lines of "creative visualization" and you may think I'm koo koo for cocoapuffs -- but hear me out.

Everyone has known someone akin to the classic "Stuck Up Cheerleader". She's a picture of perfection and the rest of the world is beneath her. We are all her minions - yet we adore her style, grace ---- and arrogance. Think of yourself as that Cheerleader person and your dogs as the minions. You are the boss and they will do exactly as you say because 1) you are the boss and 2) they adore you for being that boss. You are stuck up... you don't use baby talk....and you aren't chatty either....you make eye contact only when there's an instruction to follow (Come. Sit. Stay. Wait.) You absolutely ADORE your minions but you cannot let on that you do or you wouldn't be the fabulous ice queen they admire. You carry yourself upright and confidently (not hunched over and fearful) in everything you do. You are calm. You are assertive.

Can you try being that person with your dogs and see what happens?

 

[Momma2Bullies]

Would you mind trying something for me? It's along the lines of "creative visualization" and you may think I'm koo koo for cocoapuffs -- but hear me out.

Everyone has known someone akin to the classic "Stuck Up Cheerleader". She's a picture of perfection and the rest of the world is beneath her. We are all her minions - yet we adore her style, grace ---- and arrogance. Think of yourself as that Cheerleader person and your dogs as the minions. You are the boss and they will do exactly as you say because 1) you are the boss and 2) they adore you for being that boss. You are stuck up... you don't use baby talk....and you aren't chatty either....you make eye contact only when there's an instruction to follow (Come. Sit. Stay. Wait.) You absolutely ADORE your minions but you cannot let on that you do or you wouldn't be the fabulous ice queen they admire. You carry yourself upright and confidently (not hunched over and fearful) in everything you do. You are calm. You are assertive.

Can you try being that person with your dogs and see what happens?

At this point I am willing to really try anything - the last couple of days have been "ok", with only one fight and a few other close calls I was able to avert. But that is still too many
I have to say that I CONSTANTLY talk to them, I always have and I have done this with all of my pets! I also baby talk sometimes... so this will be a very radical change.

I don't think this is a koo koo idea at all, my boyfriend and I were just talking yesterday about how I am probably seen as more of a fellow pack member or peer (even below them) because I really play with them and cater to their needs (if they need fresh water every 5 minutes or are they too hot/too cold, were any toys left outside, does anyone's wrinkles need wiping, etc.). Maybe being a little more snobby and stuck up would help change my "image". Goodness knows they just about turn themselves inside when my boyfriend appears and he doesn't really do a thing for their care or anything!!! LOL it drives me crazy! But it sure seems to make him the boss.

Thank you for thinking of us! I will keep you posted!

 

[Vicaroo1000]

[MENTION=5605]Momma2Bullies[/MENTION] - I hope you do try this sincerely. I think it will help. I wish I were there to coach and cheer you on!