Help Needed! Fighting is getting worse

Momma2Bullies

New member
Aug 2, 2012
356
26
Canada
Bulldog(s) Names
Layla and Wilbur
Hi everyone,
I am starting to have some real issues with Wilbur and Layla fighting. I have searched through the other posts about looking for triggers, preventing the fight, being a strong leader.....I am at a loss. There seems to be no rhyme or reason, there isn't a single aggressor, it can happen in a room with no toys or food (e.g. They are in living room and I step into the kitchen), I just don't know what to do. Wilbur has cuts/scrapes on his muzzle, Layla has a bad scratch way too close to her eye and scabs on her neck...it is awful.

I see the posturing and immediately disagree, I have pinned them both, but sometimes I seem to make it worse?

I have no idea why this is happening. A second afterwards they are cuddling and playing together.
They will be 2 at the end of May, is this a normal phase of figuring themselves out (I hope so).

I can't leave the house without crating them...used to be because they like to get into trouble and chew the rugs etc., but nowadays it is because I am more worried about fights and seriously hurting each other.

Any suggestions? Right now I am back to "0 Days Without A Fight" on the whiteboard. :cry:
 

kim n the guys

Well-known member
Community Veteran
Apr 3, 2011
1,581
138
Holt, MI
Country
United States
Bulldog(s) Names
Oliver, Sebastian, Remy, Gracie, and Tonka (10-21-07 to 05-29-14 RIP)
no words of advice to give. My boys, Sebastian and Oliver, started fighting really bad too and they are also 2. It also would start because of territory (namely trying to claim me or my lap) and I could usually stop it if I saw the beginning signs. I just got them both neutered hoping that will fix this. Are Wilbur and Layla fixed? If so, then all I can say is an age thing I've heard bullies go through at around the age of 2. Hopefully someone will come along with suggestions.
 

JeannieCO

Queenie
Mar 11, 2011
12,680
873
Tip of the Mitt, Michigan
Country
USA
Bulldog(s) Names
Emma, Charlie, Milo, Peekaboo and Jack
oh do I have advice. I'm dealing with this exact issue right now. I don't have much time at the moment but I will respond back to this with the issues I'm going through and have been going through for a while now. My guys are just over two. There are triggers that are setting them off - you just need to pin point them. I know what Wilson's triggers are, but I cannot always get there to stop it. I'll be back later today. In the meantime be sure to crate at least one of them at all times when you are gone. If they were to get halophyte while you're gone you can have deadly consequences. Hang in there!!!!

:hug:
 

kim n the guys

Well-known member
Community Veteran
Apr 3, 2011
1,581
138
Holt, MI
Country
United States
Bulldog(s) Names
Oliver, Sebastian, Remy, Gracie, and Tonka (10-21-07 to 05-29-14 RIP)
oh do I have advice. I'm dealing with this exact issue right now. I don't have much time at the moment but I will respond back to this with the issues I'm going through and have been going through for a while now. My guys are just over two. There are triggers that are setting them off - you just need to pin point them. I know what Wilson's triggers are, but I cannot always get there to stop it. I'll be back later today. In the meantime be sure to crate at least one of them at all times when you are gone. If they were to get halophyte while you're gone you can have deadly consequences. Hang in there!!!!

:hug:

I'll be anxiously waiting until you can reply again too, [MENTION=2014]JeannieCO[/MENTION]. See, what is it about the age of 2 that sets these guys off? I know puberty and all that, but gosh a mighty, they are killing me!

egghunt3.gif
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Petra

Moderator
Jan 8, 2013
2,869
198
Naboomspruit, South Africa.
Country
Sweden
Bulldog(s) Names
Boeboe, Bennie Boy and Joey
I've been wondering if there was anyone else having the same problem as us and I see there is... sadly:*(. We have three bulldogs, one male and two females. The one female (our rescue one) don't go together with the others AT ALL so we have the house split up, we've even had a dog trainer working with them but it hasn't gotten better as they are both incredible stubborn:( Re-homing one of them isn't even on the map since I love them more than life<3

The male and female who does go together also fight sometimes, it's the female that starts the fight almost always, she is very bitchy when she's sleeping and the male can't even move without her growling at him:confused: The hardest thing is that if we correct her she just gets more angry. Luckily our male is very tolerant of her mood swings and he walks away most of the times but once in a while he cant get away and has to defend himself. I've noticed since correcting the female doesn't work... that pretend nothing is happening when they start to get "stiff" and just call them both in a happy calm voice works. They only get into fights about 2-4 times a year and when they do trowing some water on them works to stop the fight.

I know how you feel, it is horrible :cry:I don't know what to do either, so I'm looking forward to see if there is someone who has an answer how to work with them.
 
OP
Momma2Bullies

Momma2Bullies

New member
Aug 2, 2012
356
26
Canada
Bulldog(s) Names
Layla and Wilbur
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #6
Oh @JeannieCO I am excited to see what you can tell us!
I am glad I am not alone in this.....
@kim n the guys , yes they were both fixed when they were 7 months old , I wanted it done ASAP having a male and a female. I was hoping to prevent any behavioural issues stemming from hormones, etc.
[MENTION=7710]Petra[/MENTION] I totally know what you mean! They can be sleeping and if Layla moves, Wilbur decides that isn't ok and growls....we call him Mr. Cranky Crankpot.
but then Layla will start it other times.
i also know what you mean when they get "stiff"....it's like a staring contest!

:pray: I will check back later!
 
Last edited:

2BullyMama

I'm not OCD....now who moved my bulldog?
Staff member
Community Veteran
Jul 28, 2011
48,581
3,673
Gilbertsville, PA
Country
USA
Bulldog(s) Names
Chelios (Frenchie), Nitschke (2004-2011) Banks (2005-2014) and Lambeau (2014-2024)
Jeannie is going to have some great info for you..... I just wanted to chime in and say hang in there, you will be able to pick up on the tiggers, just takes some time to identify them and then know how to address.

We have the same issue with Banks, she just gets her hairs twisted and will go after Cheli for no damn good reason.
 

JeannieCO

Queenie
Mar 11, 2011
12,680
873
Tip of the Mitt, Michigan
Country
USA
Bulldog(s) Names
Emma, Charlie, Milo, Peekaboo and Jack
This is going to be long but it’s my experience and suggestions. I'm still having excitement aggression issues and I wanted to share all of this with everyone - I feel it’s necessary to also understand my situation that I’ve been dealing with right now with Wilson (Bulldog) and Jack (Pit Bull) since this past July. Both are over just over 2 now. I’m no stranger to dogs, have had them all most life but up until Jack and Wilson I have never encountered the type of fighting that’s set off by a trigger. Wilson is also my first Bulldog. Our Pit Bulls, Ace & Orion (may they RIP), had their share of fights over the years but they always stopped when we intervened or even when we didn’t cause we weren’t home. Their fights were generally over alpha or someone possibly at the door (excitement) and they were in each other's face when barking.

Wilson’s and Jack’s fight are completely different. Wilson has what I call “excitement” triggers and Wilson has quite a few triggers that will set him off. I can read Wilson very well and I know all of Wilson’s triggers. But I just can’t head them off all the time before a fight breaks out. I’m no expert but hopefully my experience helps and we might even get a few more suggestions on trigger issues, etc.

They have had about a dozen fights since last July, give or take. We’re practicing the “no touch, no talk, no eye contact” right now whenever anyone comes over and I must have control 100% control of Emma, Wilson and Jack before they can enter the house. That means they have to sit and stay 5’ back from the door and stay there until I say they can go. It’s work in progress right now but it’s helping.

There’s a reason dogs fight IMO - whether it’s aggression or trigger related. Wilson does not have aggression towards other dogs per se, nor does Jack. They love just about everyone they see, dogs and people. Wilson triggers are:

  • Excitement (someone coming over and into the house)
  • Fast movement
  • Food (even a kibble on the floor or even snack time if another is near right near him)
  • Toads, rabbits, etc.
  • Objects he doesn't recognize (a wind chime, plastic bag in the wind, hubby swapping tires on his truck and the tire laying off to the side, etc.)
  • Fly/bee/wasp (anything that moves outside)
  • Toys
  • Loud noises
  • If he's bothered by another dog when he's in his own zone (like sleeping and then Jack starts playing and moving around and touches him).

If Jack is anywhere near Wilson when these triggers happen a fight will break out 100% of the time if I can’t intervene. Wilson’s 100% responsible for starting the fights with Jack.

When they’re playing its totally different, they play wonderfully and love on each other. But, I never let their play escalate to a point of high excitement as a fight could easily happen. I made it a point to “settle” their rough play since they were puppies.

I remember the first time I saw Wilson’s first trigger, he became a totally different dog. We were at the lake last Memorial Day last summer and he spotted a toad at night in the campsite. He did a 100% change in his stance, his focus and even the next day was OCD about finding it. He still goes to the same tree looking for it. He was obsessed with it.

The fights are becoming more intense now as they’re getting older and stronger. Here’s what I suggest and what I’m doing:

  • Walk, walk and walk! Walks really help Wilson and we have been lacking in our walks due to the cold weather and then getting busy in our basement, etc. No excuse at all though.
  • Learning what’s setting Layla off.
  • When they are posturing, exactly what is happening, what are they doing, what were they doing?
  • Practice “no touch, no talk, no eye contact” if it’s excitement when anyone enters the house. It really keeps them calm for the initial scenario.
  • Movements, are you trigging the triggers by your fast movements (I'm guilty of this and now try to focus moving a bit slower) Dogs feed off your engery?
  • Stern voice and a solid “NO” command.
  • Are the fights happening in closed in areas (narrower areas of the house) or out in the open?
  • Submission (must be careful with this though and not everyone will agree). If you over submit the wrong dog it can have bad consequences. I can submit Wilson to his side if needed and he’s calm, same with Emma (never need to but…). And Jack same thing. Ace I could also submit. Orion on the other hand was a fear biter and I NEVER submitted him. A fear biter will do just that, bite if he’s in a situation he’s uncomfortable with. I had him turn on me once and I learned my lesson with him fast. Never ever corner a dog, never!
  • Put a harness on Layla at all times (I have to do that with Wilson right now too). It gives you something to grab onto if they fight.
  • Crate Layla or Wilbur when you’re gone. You don’t have to crate both, you can rotate them. I rotate Wilson and Jack in their crates when we’re gone. One always stays out. It's all good and gives them a place to chill, careful on uncrating them though if excitement is the trigger.

I’d like to say we’re not hypersensitive now but we are. We both have caught ourselves yelling at them when they were only playing or a sound was made. We’re working on this with ourselves now.

This is going to talk a lot of work. You're issues seem to be the same as mine.

Sandy [MENTION=2291]cowsmom[/MENTION] suggested putting Wilson on a Lead (lease) when I’m home. I'm going to do more reading on the leads and give it some serious thought. A Harness is again on Wilson when we’re home. I'm starting to do some research on "excitement" triggers and have checked out Cesar Milan’s website. In reading his “How to Stop Dogs When They’re Fighting” I read that that I’m doing a couple of things wrong: Yelling at them when their fighting is not good and not taking a step back to assess which one is the aggressor before jumping in to stop them. I will then pull Wilson by the back legs. Cesar suggests to "then you need to step in to give that dog the right touch - this means the ribcage." This will cause the dog to release his bite for that split second and give you the moment you’ll need to pull him away from the other.


Here’s just a few memorable moments of their fights, the first one as recent as this past Wednesday and by far the worst one they’ve had so far.


3/20/12
Jack and Wilson just got into a fight and Emma joined (she backed off when I got involved though). I had just gotten home for the second time that evening and was moving one runner rug to replace it with another. They were behind me and still excited from me just getting home for and had lots of energy that I neglected to address first. All of a sudden a fight was on. Jack had Wilson by the ear and was thrusting him around. With all my screaming, throwing the rug at them, they would NOT stop. I managed once to pull Wilson off by pulling him from his back legs; only for me to lose my grip (Jack still had ahold of his ear though). He went after Jack again and the fight was right back on. I felt like I was playing tug-a-war with Wilson with Jack. Wilson has 2 good sized puncture wounds on one ear. Jack really had a hold of him and wasn't letting go. That worries me quite a bit - not that Jack worries me by no means, just the situation.

10/26/12
One night Wilson was under the recliner chair chillin'. Jack and Emma were playing together and a nylabone Emma had dropped near Wilson between me and Mike. Emma jumped down to get it so all 3 were right there in a confined area between the couch and coffee table. I had just told Mike we need to move them and I got up and was just reaching to get Wilson caused I knew what was about to happen when the fight broke out.

????
Another night our neighbor came over and all three got really excited. I told to Mike they needed to be calmed down (I was in the other room working on auction items). About 10 minutes later Wilson took the bone into the kitchen and Jack was his excitable happy self. A fight broke out and Emma got involved too. I yanked Wilson out from under Mike's legs and he was able to toss Emma to the side and stop Jack. Mike got bit on the index finder. We got them all calmed down so we thought, 15 minutes went by, and Jack was not doing anything and Wilson went into a stare down and attacked him again.


10/14/12
I was down visiting with Henny [MENTION=1904]cali baker[/MENTION]. Mike had to work that Saturday and our wonderful neighbors poked in to let them out for potty breaks. They know our neighbors very well. That Saturday our neighbor had taken all three of them over to their house for a visit. All three have never been over at the same time but had been going over there since they were puppies. And with me gone the dynamics are a bit different – I’m the alpha. They don’t know Wilson’s triggers and cannot read them either. Wilson caught sight of an object that was hanging on their back porch twirling and that set him off, he apparently was zoned in on it and Larry had seen that. Jack went by apparently to see what was up and Wilson attacked Jack and fought back for the first time. My neighbor’s thumb is still healing 6 months later.

7/18/12
Jack and Wilson got into their first fight right after there were all done eating. I was sitting right there as I also do every night. I believe Emma got to close to Wilson as he was finishing his food and that was enough for him. I've been working on her and she's doing great but she passed him and Jack was right there. Wilson literally had Jack by the throat and I did what my instinct told me to do, pull them off each other. Before I knew it I felt Wilson's teeth rip into my arm. That was not his fault and he was not going after me by no means, I put my hand in the middle to pull them apart and got the brunt end of it. Wilson now eats in a separate room and with working on them all they all now wait to go to the other’s bowl until it’s relinquished.

Other than certain scenarios they get along and play wonderfully as you’ve may have seen from their play videos.

I feel sorry for Jack at times because since he was a puppy all he wants to do is play and he's been bite from day 1 by other dogs he's met.......

[MENTION=2614]Vicaroo1000[/MENTION] might also have some suggestions
 
Last edited:

JeannieCO

Queenie
Mar 11, 2011
12,680
873
Tip of the Mitt, Michigan
Country
USA
Bulldog(s) Names
Emma, Charlie, Milo, Peekaboo and Jack
[MENTION=7710]Petra[/MENTION] I totally know what you mean! They can be sleeping and if Layla moves, Wilbur decides that isn't ok and growls....we call him Mr. Cranky Crankpot.
but then Layla will start it other times.
i also know what you mean when they get "stiff"....it's like a staring contest!
If that happens again when Wilbur is sleeping scold him immediately. Zero tolerance there. Also a starring contest challenges the other to two things: Lets play and Lets Fight. Scold them both if it's the Lets Fight star. :no: Redirect that negative engery fast.
 

JeannieCO

Queenie
Mar 11, 2011
12,680
873
Tip of the Mitt, Michigan
Country
USA
Bulldog(s) Names
Emma, Charlie, Milo, Peekaboo and Jack
Another thing I wanted to mention which to me is different the excitement I listed above but is happy excitable dogs. Jack is a happy to see you type of dog and he shows that with his fast movements and body wiggles. If this alone happens when they’re in the kitchen, hallway or other more closed in area, a fight will happen. [MENTION=1904]cali baker[/MENTION], Tate has happy excitement that Finn doesn’t like all the time right?
 

cali baker

Worlds Greatest Chef
Feb 25, 2011
8,925
851
The Crown City (Pasadena)
Country
United States
Bulldog(s) Names
Tate Rory & Finn Paddington
Another thing I wanted to mention which to me is different the excitement I listed above but is happy excitable dogs. Jack is a happy to see you type of dog and he shows that with his fast movements and body wiggles. If this alone happens when they’re in the kitchen, hallway or other more closed in area, a fight will happen. @cali baker, Tate has happy excitement that Finn doesn’t like all the time right?

there was a time when Tate , with his very bubbly and robust personality, would overwhelm Finn. Finn would get annoyed by Tate's over excitement and would try to control him and make him stop by fighting with him. These days, fortunately, I'm setting more limits w/Tate and his over excitement (doing this by making him sit, ignoring him, the no touch/no talk/no see is very helpful here as well), and this in turn has helped w/Finn's reactions and now Finn doesn't feel he needs to "take control" over his bro's actions b/c now mom is doing it.
 

Vicaroo1000

"Slug Assassin" and PBS Gardening Dweeb
Jun 23, 2011
5,775
389
Mukilteo, Washington State
Bulldog(s) Names
Beefeater's Buxom Beatrice and Lord Harrington's Bodacious Beauregaard
there was a time when Tate , with his very bubbly and robust personality, would overwhelm Finn. Finn would get annoyed by Tate's over excitement and would try to control him and make him stop by fighting with him. These days, fortunately, I'm setting more limits w/Tate and his over excitement (doing this by making him sit, ignoring him, the no touch/no talk/no see is very helpful here as well), and this in turn has helped w/Finn's reactions and now Finn doesn't feel he needs to "take control" over his bro's actions b/c now mom is doing it.

I'm glad you mentioned this, Henny. Bo doesn't like Bea's tendency to get over excited about certain things and Bo tries to address her excitement himself. When I see this happening, I must step in and be the one in control. Like most bullies it seems, Bea will flip out over really dumb stuff. Lately, it's certain commercials on TV. If Bo's anywhere nearby he will attempt to "correct" her behavior/distress/whateveritis. I can imagine him saying, "What is WRONG WITH YOU? There's nothing to flip out about!" But it's my job to correct her -- not his -- and so I must correct him for correcting and then correct Bea. It's exhausting isn't it? LOL

My pups are Bea (3) and Bo (2) and I HAVE TO BELIEVE that a lot of this is the age. As long as we are firm and in control of the situations (Calm and Assertive!) the "habit" of getting away with this or that won't be established, hormones will cease to rule the day and we'll have good dogs that get along 99% of the time. They are dogs though and, like humans, are going to have disagreements from time to time. It's life.

Most folks that I meet in person and talk to about dog problems are NOT truly AWARE of what's going on with their dogs. Just being as aware as we are, we are many, many steps in the right direction!!
 

kim n the guys

Well-known member
Community Veteran
Apr 3, 2011
1,581
138
Holt, MI
Country
United States
Bulldog(s) Names
Oliver, Sebastian, Remy, Gracie, and Tonka (10-21-07 to 05-29-14 RIP)
Sebastian and Oliver don't fight due to overexcitement. Their triggers are more territorial. Most of the time, I believe, it's because they are trying to claim me but sometimes it can be just because one of the dogs is a spot in the house the other dog wants to be. It can also be a doorway or the top of the stairs.

Example #1: This just happened last night around 11. Mind you, Oliver still has the big ol' cone on his head. Sebastian happened to be laying in Remy's crate, Oliver was sleeping on the couch next to Tanner. I was going to bed so I told Tanner to either put Remy in his crate or take him to bed with him and he could leave Oliver on the couch and leave Sebastian either in Remy's crate or put him in his own. Tanner went to take a shower and the next thing I hear is barking. I come out into the living room and Oliver is inside Remy's crate fighting with Sebastian. Apparently, Oliver wanted to go lay down in the crate and wanted Sebastian out. I didn't see who started it.

Example #2: Oliver is laying on the couch next to me, one of the other dogs even comes close to the couch we're on and he starts growling. When that happens I can usually stop it right away by touching the side of his neck and saying no. If it excalates to the point of actual fighting, then they get off the couch and on the floor.

Example #3: When the dogs are outside all together, of course, they don't always come in at the same time. Yesterday, Oliver was the last one to come in (the cone slows him down) and he was trying to come in the slider and Sebastian was standing right there blocking the way. They do the stand and freeze and I get Sebastian to move back away from the door.

These are just a few but you get the idea. All their fights seem to be over a piece of real estate.

Any suggestions for this type of behavior. Hopefully, now that they've both been neutered once the testosterone levels in their bodies level off they will go back to being less territorial. Remy will occassionally get caught up when the fights start but his is more excitement I think.
 
OP
Momma2Bullies

Momma2Bullies

New member
Aug 2, 2012
356
26
Canada
Bulldog(s) Names
Layla and Wilbur
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #15
I hope I can help a bit. I'm still working it out with my Hooligans. :pray:

Oh Jeannie that is great information!! Thank you so much - I see so many parallels with my guys. So far I haven't had the "excitement" fights (when people come in or I come home). Wilbur is actually a very fearful dog (he is scared of everything - noises, new furniture, etc.) Layla is Miss Social Butterfly and is all over the person while Wilbur hangs back (tail wagging but cautious. They eat together and I don't seem to have any food aggression while they are eating, but I have had to watch it lately when I give them a treat and they are in a sit beside each other, that can be a trigger.

I DO have:
- Wilbur "claiming" the couch or one of their dog beds (raising hackles at Layla if she tries to get on the couch too, whether I am also on the couch or not). I have been making Wilbur sit on the floor when he does this but when I come near to remove him, this usually sparks the fight.
He will also be very cranky if she touches him or moves while he is asleep, this can be a fight. Usually Layla cowers and moves away but I have a sense she is feeling fed-up with this and isn't going to take it anymore!

- Layla will take the toy/bone Wilbur is chewing or carrying around, and then when he wants to tug or take it back, she is immediately crazy aggressive and it results in a fight, even if Wilbur was doing his play dance and trying to engage her. Right this minute this is happening. I can see Layla is getting overprotective of the toy she just stole from Wilbur, so I have 'redirected' Wilbur by distracting him and asking him to go get his 'baby bone' (a blue toy and he knows the name). Thankfully that worked, he doesn't care about Layla right now.

-Wilbur is reactive and scared of a lot of things, if there is a noise on tv (the list of "unauthorized' sound is endless - from babies to hammers...anything and everything sets him off) he thinks the sound is actually from outside and/or the kettle (long story - he associates everything evil with the kettle on the counter and has literally gouged the cabinet trying to get at the kettle. He then freaks and is desperate to get outside. He is uncontrollable in this state, he rams through the backdoor and if it is latched (or blocked by snow) he attacks Layla (she is following to see what all the commotion is about). I know this is classic redirected aggression and I believe harnessing him will help that ?

- I know I am part of the issue. Wilbur has "claimed' me. If Layla is cuddling on my lap on the couch, he will muscle her out and it results in a fight. This is where I have really failed. Wilbur always gravitated to me and Layla really bonded with my BF - I don't know how it happened but I guess it isn't unusual for the male to bond with his female human and vice versa for girl dogs? I don't know....but I created a monster with Wilbur and I really look to when he had his knee surgery at 10 months old. I am the primary caregiver and during his recovery/rehab I had to really curtail Layla's natural exuberance and keep them from playing (so he wouldn't re-injure, etc.). As a result, I had to tell Layla "no!' a lot and babied Wilbur. Sigh. And here we are. I am working on that because I know that was my doing (a year later and I think I am dealing with the consequences).

I am going to check out Cesar's site - I do remember the tip about lifting the back legs if they are fighting so they release, I can't believe I forgot it!
I am also going to really watch the triggers. I know I have a lot of work to do, particularly with Wilbur. I don't like how he is walking with me either - he is pulling a lot, and I know that is an indication of thinking he is the boss.

I really laughed at your toad story - I get toads in my yard and last summer was "Toad Summer' here - BOTH dogs were out of their minds over the toads. Completely OCD. I would be waiting and waiting for them to do their business so I could go to work or go to bed, and ALL THEY WOULD DO is hunt for the toads. It was insane! hahahahaha!
froggy.jpg

Thanks again Jeannie - I am going to pour over your post again and see what else I can do...
Today so far I am "1 Day Without A Fight" on the whiteboard! :)
 

Most Reactions

📰 Latest posts

Members online

No members online now.
Top