I may be new here but I am not new to dogs. I think your post was to the point and clearly written with the dog lover in mind. While the shows on tv are informational, what you don't see in that 30 minute time slot is an in-depth look at the dog's history, medical situation or so on... I agree 200% about someone not familiar enough with submissive pressure or experience getting hurt or hurting our fur babies. I agree Cesar has a great format and it's really a great platform, my opinion is you need to have a professional consult to properly address your situation. I have sent a dog or two to U of P for behavior consultation and it was well worth the money!!! Just my 2 cents... great post!!!!
As with most things, the best path/way is somewhere in the middle. It's wrong to have a total black/white attitude towards most things (sadly, that seems to be the way of most people in this world), thinking it's either one or the other, without even trying to see things as they are - very complex, with the most appropriate way mostly being somewhere in the middle.
I think it's best if you use good things from both sides, both worlds, and then try applying them correctly, based on the circumstances and also the personality of your dog and what (s)he needs in order to be balanced and achieve happiness.
Hey Jennifer, I'll admit that when I first read this I was like whoa, what horse did Jennifer ride in on! I have had dogs nearly all my life and the last 12 year years 4 of those have been Pitbulls (3 my hubby had when we met and now Jack).
Where am I going with this? I like to consider myself the alpha in my house when it comes to my dogs (for a lack of a better title). But what does Alpha mean to me? It means the rules in my house are my rules and my dogs must follow them. If I ask them to sit for their dinner they best be sitting. If I ask them to settle they best settle, etc.
I learned a very important lesson when handling dogs and as much as I'm ashamed to share this story and it's the first you all have heard it, it is training related on what NOT to do! I'm sharing this because I feel it's important about how even when you think you know what you're doing you can totally forget and do everything wrong in an instant!!
You've seen pics of Orion, my 12 yo brindle pitty who has passed right? Orion was a "fear biter" and did not like to be held down nor cornered - he'd always been this way. Well the Fall before he passed, almost 2 years ago, Ace his brother had been having all kinds of potty mishaps. I knew the moment when I'd get home that something happened as they would sit immediately with their heads bowed and not look at me. Well one day Ace peed again and I had a very bad day at work. My routine was to get them outside but I was not happy doing it that day and they knew it. Orion kept running from me and we went back and forth, around the house, upstairs downstairs - you name it - I could NOT get him outside. I was getting very pissed! So STUPID me went and got the snow shovel and closed all the doors upstairs and in doing that the landing at the top of the stairs was all he had to go to. Well up I come with a snow shovel to use to guide him down but I had BAD energy. You already know what happened I’m sure, he turned on me because I trapped him. He teeth were barred and in an instance I was faced with him turning on me. I was STUNNED. What did I do? I just about leaped over the other side of my staircase it was that bad and I felt that any wrong move I made he's attack. I calmly backed down with my hands on the railing in case I needed to leap and left him alone until we all calmed down. I knew better but in my moment I had forgot about he's issues and that nearly costs us both.
I learned a tough lesson that day because I thought I was 100% the Alpha. I never submit a scared or aggressive dog at all (well I've never really had one of those either). But I do submit when they get out of control in the play department.
So what's my point? You have some very valid points but we all do have different ways of handling our dogs, what works for one will not work for another. I also think it's very important for all of us to make sure when we give our opinions on training that we understand the person's dog and them and what their needs are as our advice could be very wrong for them.
That's my opinions.
Oh, good to see you my friend.
Three Hooligans and 1 Angel - Wilson, Sally, Emma & Jack
@JeannieCO That's a great story to share with people, I'm glad that you did.
Ok everyone allow me to explain where my heart was when I wrote this. I admit I can sometimes come across a little brash. I was reading Johns's second post about his dog. I saw 2 words that made me cringe, Vicious and baby! I had an employee at the daycare I managed that did believe in submitting his dog with reasonable success. I'm typically a live and let live kinda person adn we would debate training theory from time to time but in a friendly way. He and his s.o. adopted 3 children. All of his dogs were grea with them and adored them. Until the day that the youngest child, 2, was walking and tripped and fell on one of his dogs. This dog in the past had given him some issue while in a submission hold. The little girl landed on the dog, dog though she was trying to pin him he turned around and quite literally ripped part of her face and skull off! SHe was rushed to the er and lived but with many painful surgeries and sever disfigurement to follow. O also know of another dog whom I used to love @ my daycare that had to be pts due to foster parents abusing their "alpha" role This is why I am so anti physical correction. I know it works but I feel like people coming here with behavior ?? probably don't have the experience needed to do it safely just by the fact that there are here asking. I love you all and I feel like we need to be responsible about the info we give out.
If tears could build a staircase and happy memories a lane, I could walk right up to Heaven and bring you home again!
@dozersmama, I'm glad I did too. That's a tragic story. It's important we know our dogs well. Ace was the do all kids played with an small kids we kept away from Orion or just under supervision for the very story you told. Had a kid fell on him and he was held down, I probably would have turned out of fear.
Three Hooligans and 1 Angel - Wilson, Sally, Emma & Jack
Whoa, thanks for sharing your experiences, especially the kid one, Jenn. Now I have to talk to the bf about submitting. He doesn't do it too often, maybe every few days or so, but I think he tries to follow Cesar to a tee sometimes. I go with 'what feels right at the time' sorta discipline. Although that includes more assertion on my part occasionally.
Thank you for the 'energy' reminder as well, that definitely goes a long way if done correctly.
"I am normally not a praying man, but if you really are up there, please save me Superman!'' - Homer J. Simpson
I totally see your point. I think the title in your post and the initial post probably started things off wrong and in a negative note. I know me , for one, was pretty taken aback by it. I understand your viewpoint now but every dog is different. We all just need to figure out what techniques work for each individual dog.
I know the post your referencing. I mentioned to my wife that same thing, not everyone can and should just up and submit there dog. Not a good idea. In every case I read and see they have already done so somewhat or was able to already but everyone to do that is not a good idea if they can't do it properly, calmly, and correct.
I always encourage full alpha roll on a daily basis in everything you do from feeding, to house training, walking, just in the living room etc. Never would I suggest just up and show your dog who is boss because your in the mood for the day.
I applaude your well written reply.
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Call me silly, but what is U of P?
@JeannieCO...wonderful, wonderful post! Appreciate your honesty...great for all of our continuing education in
'speaking animal'. Will share one of my wake up calls-30 years ago, raising ChowChows-the 'old type' like Martha
Stewart's- BIG dogs, tall, heavy boned, stocky beauties...our stud was a wonderful and beautiful black Chow...
Big Mack. One day, he had done something, can't even remember what and I'd come home from work, tired and
bitchy and started in on him and wasn't realizing I'd backed him up in a corner. Ragging on him, I suddenly 'caught'
a certain look in his eye...a warning...and instantly knew I'd gone too far! Shamefaced, I dropped my scolding
finger, lowered my voice, backed out of his personal space and offered my contrite apologies to him. Great & noble
dog he was, he graciously accepted and we went on from there-a lesson I've never forgotten and taught well by him.
As another wonderful post here stated, humans & animals alike, we are always individuals, therefore unique & different!
I would like to hope that anyone reading the various methods offered up to questions asking for help, would understand
that LOVE, KINDNESS, COMPASSION & RESPECT are inherently and obviously used in any method of training and even
more so when reprimanding.
I did suggest using the ALPHA submission hold to one of the post and thinking about it later, regretted that answer. For
all the reasons that Jennifer brought up in her brave and excellent post, it can be hurtful, harmful, dangerous & deadly if
it goes badly. It bothered me and I did not repost with my reconsidered answer and I'd like to 'Thank You, Jennifer' for
your excellent advice and for starting a wonderful conversation & excellent advice and wisdom from all here. Texas Carol
My 1st bully, Brutus
RIP beloved boy.