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Thread: Question about bones,

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    Default Question about bones,

    So duchess has been on raw for about 6 weeks, natures variety frozen, but due to cost I am switching to home made raw. She has a slight chicken allergy and I know this is the protein many people recommend.

    she is a gulper so I don't trust her with chunks, she swallowed a 4" turkey neck whole before, so I will be purchasing ground meat until I invest in a grinder for home.


    My thought is to use barf model but mimmick the ingredients/recipe on the bag of natures variety. I will purchase ground protein, bison, beef, turkey, lamb, etc. add minimal fruits and veggies(apple, cranberries, kale,etc), she also loves sweet potatoes so I will mix some of those in also as they are very inexpensive, organs, and muscles. But my question is how do I get bone? What can I use to give her the bone she needs? Also do you guys think a butcher would be willing to grind up bone? I also will continue,with her probiotic, salmon oil, and coconut oil, and apple cider vinegar. I'm currently spending $60-$80 per week on pre-packaged raw depending on the protein. If I can reduce this cost to $30-$40 per week I will be super happy. I'm currently feeding her 1.5lbs per day. She is 6 months and 41lbs +/- 2lb. Well defined with a nice waist. Any input will be greatly appreciated!

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    Default Re: Question about bones,

    I wish I knew more but I will tag @savemejeebus because she is a very knowledgeable and experience raw feeder.

    "I think dogs are the most amazing creatures; they give unconditional love. For me they are the role model for being alive."
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    Default Re: Question about bones,

    You can always ask the butcher if they're willing to. There may also be rawfeeding stores, owned by fellow rawfeeders, who sell almost ground anything. Some barf recommended grinders can do chicken and rabbit bones, other than that, you'd need a really powerful one if you'd like to do everything at home.

    For gulpers, some people recommend that you feed them either really big pieces or give it to them half frozen. Both scenarios will force them to chew. 4" does sound small and I'd be hesitant to give those to my boys.
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    Default Re: Question about bones,

    @savemejeebus so I am switching from natures variety raw to homemade raw. Duchess has a minor chicken allergy so I am unable to feed chicken backs. I have not been able to find any butchers who can grind bone either. The most they are able to do is rabbit or duck which is ok. But my question is what can I feed to supplement bone? I plan to rotate proteins and organs but I'm at a loss as to what I'm suppose to feed for bone. I basically took the ingredients off the back of the natures variety bag, that's how I came up with all these ingredients. I'm feeding 24oz per day. 8oz of meat,organ, and bone! once I figure out what to use and 4 oz of the veggie mix. So 12oz twice a day. Is this overkill? I switched off natures variety because I was spending $80 per week. If I cut that in half I'm happy! Any advice?
    Heres my current ingredient list: Protein:
    Spinach. Beef, beef heart,liver,kidney
    brocolli
    kale
    apple
    lettuce
    Carrots
    butternut squash
    flaxseed
    parsely
    alfalfa sprouts
    blueberries
    cranberries
    rosemary
    sage
    ground clove
    olive oil
    salmon oil
    coconut oil
    apple cider vinegar
    probiotic

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    Default Re: Question about bones,

    @Scueva - good question about a bone supplement! I couldn't find much on the rawfeeding group and will look into it further (just gotta find the right keywords). But here's what I found googling which took me to a cat site. They talked about frankenprey and how they can't feed bone to one of their critters because of lack of teeth, and someone responded using an eggshell powder and NOW calcium hydroxyapatite (http://www.amazon.com/Now-Foods-Calc...sr_1_1?ie=UTF8).

    Here are the proportions they mentioned:

    1/32 teaspoon of eggshell powder per ounce of meat, and 3/64 teaspoon of eggshell powder per ounce of (most) organs

    NOW calcium hydroxyapatite - use about 3/4 of a capsule per ounce of meat, and about 1 capsule per ounce of (most) secreting organs

    I'll pm you the url of the site as it has a lot more details on the amounts and why. Will also see if these supplements ever come up on the rawfeeding groups!

    Oh, and 24oz is not overkill. Sounds about average for our bullies!
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    Default Re: Question about bones,

    Oh, I forgot to mention that the main differences between feeding raw to a cat instead of a dog, is that cats are strictly carnivorous ... I've heard that most will not touch veggies or fruits at all! They also need to be given taurine. But the ratios should be the same.
    "I am normally not a praying man, but if you really are up there, please save me Superman!'' - Homer J. Simpson

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    Default Re: Question about bones,

    @Scueva - found another great site, this time canine related!

    Here it is: http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjhomemade3.html
    (link posted with express consent of the administrator)


    Here's the tidbit about the importance of calcium (which you get from bone) and alternatives.

    Calcium: One of the most common mistakes that people make when feeding a home cooked diet is the failure to add calcium. You must add calcium when you feed a diet that does not include bones.

    Adult dogs need around 800 to 1,000 mg of calcium per pound of food fed. They also require the calcium to be supplied in a proper proportion to phosphorus.
    The ideal calcium:phosphorus ratio in the canine diet is between 1:1 and 2:1. Meat contains a lot of phosphorus, so the more meat a diet contains, the more calcium will be required to reach the correct calcium:phosphorus ratio. Adding 800 to 1,000 mg of calcium will provide the correct calcium:phosphorus ratio even for a high-meat diet, unless you use a calcium supplement that also contains phosphorus. In that case, moderately higher amounts of calcium may be needed to balance out the additional phosphorus contained in the supplement.


    Ground eggshell can be used as a calcium supplement. Rinse eggshells and dry them on a counter overnight, or in the oven, then grind them in a clean coffee grinder. One large eggshell provides one teaspoon of ground eggshell, which contains 2,000 mg of calcium, so add ˝ teaspoon ground eggshell per pound of food fed. Don’t use eggshells that haven’t been ground to powder, as they may not be absorbed as well.


    You can use other types of calcium supplements (any form of calcium is fine). Calcium from seaweed, such as Animal Essentials’ Natural Calcium, also supplies other minerals (including magnesium, iodine, and selenium) that are beneficial.


    Bone meal is frequently used as a source of calcium in diets that don't include raw bone. However, bone meal contains calcium and phosphorus. Different brands of bone meal supplements contain different amounts of calcium and phosphorus, but the calcium:phosphorus ratio is always the same: 2:1. To balance a diet that contains lots of phosphorus, then, you will need to give an amount of bone meal that will provide 1,000 to 1,200 mg calcium per pound of food to keep the ideal calcium: phosphorus ratio in the diet correct.


    Look for bone meal supplements that are guaranteed to be free of lead and other contaminants. You can also use a purified bone extract called Microcrystalline Hydroxyapatite (MCHA), but most of these supplements also contain vitamin D in high amounts, which would not be appropriate to use (see Supplements section further on in the text).
    Another option is to use a supplement designed specifically to balance a limited diet, including supplying the proper amount of calcium. \


    One last option is to use a dog food pre-mix to which you add meat, eggs, dairy, and other healthy foods. These pre-mixes will include calcium and other nutrients to balance out the fresh foods that you add. (See “Have Dinner In,” WDJ April 2007 for more information on pre-mixes.)


    If you feed meat with ground bone, there is no need to add calcium. (See “A Raw Deal,” May 2007, for more information about diets containing ground bone.)
    When you use supplements or pre-mixes designed to balance a limited diet, you should restrict the amount of liver you feed to no more than half the amount recommended below, due to high levels of vitamin A. Also, do not add kelp (due to the risk of excess iodine, which can interfere with thyroid function), unless the pre-mix instructs you to do so.


    Remember that you should never feed cooked whole bones, unless they have been cooked into mush in a pressure cooker or by boiling for many hours. (This will only work with some chicken bones; other bones remain too hard no matter how long you cook them, though you can add some vinegar to the water to help leach out some of the calcium into the food.)


    You can cook meat-based foods that contain ground bone, but this is not ideal. Cooking food that contains a large amount of ground bone can lead to constipation or even impaction. That’s why cooking ground-up necks, backs, wings, etc. -- or commercial blends that contain ground bone -- is inadvisable. Either feed this ground food raw, or add in an equal amount of meat (without bone) to lower the percentage of bone in the mix.


    Again, when bones are fed, you do not need to add calcium to the diet.
    Last edited by savemejeebus; 10-14-2012 at 10:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Question about bones,

    @savemejeebus Thanks so much! How long have you fed raw? How important is free range beef? What aboutGrass fed organs? So I think I'm on the right track. I bought a grinder so I can grind my own turkey neck, ox tails, duck, and rabbit. So that should solve my bone issues. I have a meat packing district by me so I can get everything extremely cheap but they don't have free range meat. Also can dogs have pork organs?

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    Default Re: Question about bones,

    Quote Originally Posted by Scueva View Post
    @savemejeebus Thanks so much! How long have you fed raw? How important is free range beef? What aboutGrass fed organs? So I think I'm on the right track. I bought a grinder so I can grind my own turkey neck, ox tails, duck, and rabbit. So that should solve my bone issues. I have a meat packing district by me so I can get everything extremely cheap but they don't have free range meat. Also can dogs have pork organs?
    I've been feeding raw since Stig was about 7 months, so Oct/Nov 2010. He was always red and had hives whenever he was on kibble, so we were lucky to have met someone who fed raw to her clan. Free range / grass fed can be seen as us eating organic food. Essentially, they're much better, but not mandatory by any means. We can only stretch our hard earned dollars so much. :wink: If you can afford it, then that's even better.

    Although my holistic/homeopathic vet here advises to avoid red meat because of steroids and antibiotics. This conflicts with the yahoo rawfeeding group which always states that red meat is much better for our babies, as wolves will prey on bigger animals before feeding on chicken or fish. I just get whatever's available, making sure the boys get a variety.

    Fantastic that you bought a grinder. I think that'll make your life so much easier instead of solely depending on powder! It'll be messier, but easier mentally. lol.

    Yes, they can have pork organs. Any type of organs actually since they're boneless. Just make sure liver is only 5% of the diet as it's too rich.

    Gluck! I recommend that you grind as much as you can in one sitting as it's easier cleanup!
    "I am normally not a praying man, but if you really are up there, please save me Superman!'' - Homer J. Simpson

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    Default Re: Question about bones,

    @savemejeebus thank you so much for all your help! One more question and I promise I'll stop bugging you. Do you feed fish ever? What type of fish is safe to feed?

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    Default Re: Question about bones,

    Quote Originally Posted by Scueva View Post
    @savemejeebus thank you so much for all your help! One more question and I promise I'll stop bugging you. Do you feed fish ever? What type of fish is safe to feed?
    Lol. Don't worry, you're not at all bugging me. More like testing my knowledge, or helping sharpen my researching skills. Yes, you can feed fish. Some are a better than others. And then there's a few where there's no benefits at all. I'll look for this chart that you can reference ... On the iPad at the moment so it's a little difficult. . I feed my boys whole sardines that I get frozen from the store. When you see the chart, you'll see that they're rich in omega 3s.
    "I am normally not a praying man, but if you really are up there, please save me Superman!'' - Homer J. Simpson

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    Default Re: Question about bones,

    @savemejeebus if the beef isn't free range could it trigger a grain allergy? Since the cow would have been fed grains.

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