Wallygator & Willow are fighting… Ugh!

[ddnene]

Many of you know about the behavioral issues we are having w/Wallygator & we are working on those w/a behaviorist… well NOW him & Willow are starting to get into it.

A couple of times in the last two weeks Wally has lunged out at Willow for no real apparent reason, and I just thought it was because he was in one of his "fits" that we are still trying to find the cause of. He will have this look where his pupils are HUGE, ears laid back and his tail is up. He will start growling, and I KNOW he's having one of his moments… Yesterday we had the behaviorist here, and we had Willow in the crate because she wanted to work w/him exclusively first. He seemed exhausted (plus he's still in recovery from his neuter) so I figured last night we would take it easy. I have NO idea what started it, but they BOTH got into it and I literally had to break them apart. I was SO MAD you KNOW how stubborn they are, neither one wanted to stop. Nikki had told me that if Wally is in pain in his rear area that Willow jumping on him is making him anxious and I need to make sure to give her a time-out to give Wally a break. I also need to spend time w/Wally one on one…

SO this morning at breakfast, Willow refused to head over to her food area I had to feed her in the kitchen. They both were giving each other weird looks, and I'm getting worried. I know that MANY of you have dealt w/this crap, how do you handle these fights, and did you notice a weirdness between them afterwards?!! I have noticed that sometimes he will just sit and growl at her, like he's jealous… and we ALL know they both get the same amount of attention. I'm going to contact Nikki later today to get her thoughts…

 

[brutus77]

OK, so when you see either of them starting to get the "look" immediately intervene. This is what I do:

Brutus will get his look on and I will immediately in a loud voice say "Brutus knock it off" if he immediately does not come out of it, I will tell him "No Brutus" and put him in his kennel and tell him he can come out when he behaves. I ususally give him abut 5-10 mins of time out so he can calm down and he understands that his behaviour is not acceptable. He gets it. He will come out normal and crisis over. The key is to catch it before it escalates into a fight, because once they are in that fight zone, no words will help. If they do get into it, never pull them apart near their head or face area. I grab one of the dogs by their hind legs and pull them backwards to separate them. This avoids the chance of me getting bit. Ever since we put Brutus on Prozac, the conflicts are almost nil and I can redirect him much much easier. Maybe you can talk to your vet and see if this is something he recommends. In my opinion, Willow is reacting to Walter. Frankie is the most passive dog in existence and he will eventually have enough of Brutus' crap and react. Good luck, as you know the key to getting him to understand the behaviour you will accept is consistency. make sure everyone in the house uses the same command when redirecting Walter out of his mood.

 

[rjisaterp]

Many of you know about the behavioral issues we are having w/Wallygator & we are working on those w/a behaviorist… well NOW him & Willow are starting to get into it.

A couple of times in the last two weeks Wally has lunged out at Willow for no real apparent reason, and I just thought it was because he was in one of his "fits" that we are still trying to find the cause of. He will have this look where his pupils are HUGE, ears laid back and his tail is up. He will start growling, and I KNOW he's having one of his moments… Yesterday we had the behaviorist here, and we had Willow in the crate because she wanted to work w/him exclusively first. He seemed exhausted (plus he's still in recovery from his neuter) so I figured last night we would take it easy. I have NO idea what started it, but they BOTH got into it and I literally had to break them apart. I was SO MAD you KNOW how stubborn they are, neither one wanted to stop. Nikki had told me that if Wally is in pain in his rear area that Willow jumping on him is making him anxious and I need to make sure to give her a time-out to give Wally a break. I also need to spend time w/Wally one on one…

SO this morning at breakfast, Willow refused to head over to her food area I had to feed her in the kitchen. They both were giving each other weird looks, and I'm getting worried. I know that MANY of you have dealt w/this crap, how do you handle these fights, and did you notice a weirdness between them afterwards?!! I have noticed that sometimes he will just sit and growl at her, like he's jealous… and we ALL know they both get the same amount of attention. I'm going to contact Nikki later today to get her thoughts…

Well I posted some observations that we have with Bentley in another thread. Fast forward, we are going through similar behavior with Bentley. Now we got Bentley when he was 8 months old. we do not think he was ever socialized with other dogs for that period of time. Please recall after we had Bentley for a month or so I mentioned that he did not know what a toy was; he did not eat his food from a bowl but off the floor instead or from a paper plate...he did drink from his bowl though; he had panic attacks at various challenges (fast breathing) such as noises (UPS trucks). He is extremely OCD in that if an item is out of place, he will bark until the item is placed back in place. He barks at packages on the floor until they are moved out of the area. He does not like to be picked-up unless it is to get in the car. He will sit in my wife's lap but not mine (if he does he starts to panic). Well I will add on to this later...more to follow. maybe in another post.

 

[Petra]

Oh crap! I wish you could get a break

You know we have serious fighting issues between Joey, Boeboe and Bennie. I can't even let them see each other. But besides that... Bennie and Boeboe would start fights now and then, it was always because of either food or attention. So we feed them separately and they're not allowed on the furniture's anymore. That has basically zeroed the fights thankfully.

I can immediately see if a fight is about to happen... Bennie will stare at Boeboe intensely, lick his mouth and the hair on his back will stand up. If I see him do any of those I take him to his "chair" and let him cool of there.

If they start a fight it takes them days to get over it, seriously days. They'll tip toe around each other and act stiff and uncomfortable, it's horrible.

I can't break them up by myself if they get into it to deep, if they just start they'll "air fight" for a couple of seconds and if I shout at them then they'll stop but I have to immediately take one away to another room for a while or they'll go at it again. If they start biting I simply go get a water bowl and I poor it over them... nothing else I can do, I'm to small to go in between.

I hope Nikki has answers for you<3

 

[JennieS]

I agree with Rosalie, immediately intervene. We have to do that with Ruthie when she goes after Brutus. She always gets a look in her eye and lowers her head, we know it's coming. If she actually attacks him before we intervene, she goes to her bed for a "timeout". Brutus is almost never the instigator with her, it's always Ruthie, she doesn't like some of the things he does. brutus always defends himself though and since he's so much bigger than Ruthie it turns out badly. When we stop the fight it's usually me just picking Ruthie up since she's so little and i can grab her quickly. There are a lot of "No's" and "Stop it's". Ruthie knows not to attack him, but if Brutus gets too close especially while playing...It's on! She's no-fun patrol.
Just make sure to intervene as soon as you can. I hope you can get all this cleared up with them and it doesn't continue longer than a few arguments here and there.

 

[2BullyMama]

You have so much tension in the home right now, this can be a result of that, as the pups are sensing the 'weakness' and not sure of leadership, but also part can be Wally's pain and Willow getting older.... I think there is a lot in the mix right now.

As others have said, we also had to learn this with Banks... body language and as soon as you see it stop it. The key is finding that sign and recognizing it. With Banks, I would see one of a few things happen her chin go up, shoulders tighten, ears back or her head go very low. Mostly she would do what I called ''lock and load' ..... eyes would lock in and she would go full on at the target. When I noticed it, all I would say is 'knock it off' and that was the only time it was said, she learned that I knew when she was about to do something unacceptable and she would walk away. Most times, it had to be said a few times to fully unlock her as she would protest (not a full growl, but a low grumble) while walking away.

As for after the fight, some cases Nitschke or Cheli would not enter the room Banks was in for a few hours or they would be in the room but not look at her (back turned), which is a sign of respect. then later, they would be totally fine and playing again. This would happen even after Banks was submitted and placed in bathroom or laundry room for a few minutes.

The training is going to definitely help, especially you and Ray learning the signs and getting the correction in before one of them make the move on the other.

 

[ddnene]

You have so much tension in the home right now, this can be a result of that, as the pups are sensing the 'weakness' and not sure of leadership, but also part can be Wally's pain and Willow getting older.... I think there is a lot in the mix right now.

As others have said, we also had to learn this with Banks... body language and as soon as you see it stop it. The key is finding that sign and recognizing it. With Banks, I would see one of a few things happen her chin go up, shoulders tighten, ears back or her head go very low. Mostly she would do what I called ''lock and load' ..... eyes would lock in and she would go full on at the target. When I noticed it, all I would say is 'knock it off' and that was the only time it was said, she learned that I knew when she was about to do something unacceptable and she would walk away. Most times, it had to be said a few times to fully unlock her as she would protest (not a full growl, but a low grumble) while walking away.

As for after the fight, some cases Nitschke or Cheli would not enter the room Banks was in for a few hours or they would be in the room but not look at her (back turned), which is a sign of respect. then later, they would be totally fine and playing again. This would happen even after Banks was submitted and placed in bathroom or laundry room for a few minutes.

The training is going to definitely help, especially you and Ray learning the signs and getting the correction in before one of them make the move on the other.

Oh Wally definitely has the "lock and load" sign… BIG eyes, ears back and the low growl. Yesterday it happened SO fast, and I wasn't watching for the signs because I thought he was asleep. I agree we have a LOT of drama in the house right now, but that will be calming down here very soon. God just help me get thru the weekend

 

[harveyspecter]

Oh Wally definitely has the "lock and load" sign… BIG eyes, ears back and the low growl. Yesterday it happened SO fast, and I wasn't watching for the signs because I thought he was asleep. I agree we have a LOT of drama in the house right now, but that will be calming down here very soon. God just help me get thru the weekend

Wow just started reading this. I hope everything will be fine.

 

[Davidh]

Sorry you are having this problem. I agree with [MENTION=9370]brutus77[/MENTION], great advice. When you see the first sign, yell out NO, or KNOCK IT OFF!!!! Stand up and get in from of him if you have too. Stopping it before it starts is key. Hopefully he will finally get it and stop this behavior. Plus since he was recently neutered his hormones are going crazy and will so for a few months.

 

[cali baker]

Goodness gracious, Tracey, what else do you need on your plate?!

Great advice above already. In our house, Finn is the instigator of 99% of the fights that go on between Tate and him. I definitely look for the warning signs which for him are a low sounding growl and his whole body just stiffens up. Tate gets visibly frightened of his brother and sometimes will not move. That's when I will get in front of Finn and sort of block him with a firm "NO!" and many times he retreats into his playpen until he cools off.

 

[Texas Carol]

Oh, Tracey...just so sad & worried about all of you!

Maybe Wally needs a separate room while he's healing from neuter
and until weekend is over (at the very least). Im worried Willow will start
being tense around him which will trigger him & just become a cycle ;(

Sure hope Wally mellows out after those hormones get out of his system.

And praying hard that his aggression issue gets correctly dx'ed & fixed.

 

[helsonwheels]

Davidh said it right. Stand in front and be ready with a NO. Dont repeat. Once is enough, grab him put him down for 10 mins on the side. Do NOT let him win. Stand there over him as that will show him YOU'RE the alpha not him. Just have your upper body above his head, keep one hand on his side chest and other hand on his neck pushing him down and say STAY. Also I suggest you are there get a choker on him for training. If you grab that choker when he's ready to beef up, grab him and yank it, put him down, stay above him on one knee and hold him down for a minute till he's calm down but leave him in that position for 10 mins. At the meantime, your other dog will see what you're doing and will back off. Dont let him get close. If he does say BACK. I like to use the word NOW if they didn't listen first time. Stretch your NNOOWWWW. It takes a lot of patience from you. Just breathe, shake off the nerves, then jump in.

Ive worked 20 yrs with kids mostly teens. I know some wont understand this but raising a dog is like raising a child. If you let your child do what they want in the first couple years of their lives cause we find it cute or funny etc etc, you're basically screwed and will start yelling, rambling and child will never listen and do what they want with you. You got to draw the line somewhere to get balance. So what do you do? Stand up, be the boss and don't give a choice. After all, you're the one that pays the bills and puts a roof over their heads and you're buying dog food lolll ok, that was my 2 cents on being the human alpha.

 

[ddnene]

THANK YOU so much for all the advice, I really appreciate it!!!

There is a LOT going on at my house right now… my grandson & his momma are moving out, hubby is home… it's been craziness. PLUS a lot is going on w/Wally… and we don't seem to have definite answers right now. Hopefully the neutering will help, but I know that it will take some time. Wally DOES have a safe place to go to when he has one of his "episodes", he will head to my bedroom. AND he doesn't try to fight me on anything… he isn't trying to push the boundaries yet. It's interesting that Nikki was saying that he is dire need of self-control and I completely agree. I think that if he can control his reactions and learn self-calming behaviors then a LOT of this madness will stop.

 

[ddnene]

Davidh said it right. Stand in front and be ready with a NO. Dont repeat. Once is enough, grab him put him down for 10 mins on the side. Do NOT let him win. Stand there over him as that will show him YOU'RE the alpha not him. Just have your upper body above his head, keep one hand on his side chest and other hand on his neck pushing him down and say STAY. Also I suggest you are there get a choker on him for training. If you grab that choker when he's ready to beef up, grab him and yank it, put him down, stay above him on one knee and hold him down for a minute till he's calm down but leave him in that position for 10 mins. At the meantime, your other dog will see what you're doing and will back off. Dont let him get close. If he does say BACK. I like to use the word NOW if they didn't listen first time. Stretch your NNOOWWWW. It takes a lot of patience from you. Just breathe, shake off the nerves, then jump in.

Ive worked 20 yrs with kids mostly teens. I know some wont understand this but raising a dog is like raising a child. If you let your child do what they want in the first couple years of their lives cause we find it cute or funny etc etc, you're basically screwed and will start yelling, rambling and child will never listen and do what they want with you. You got to draw the line somewhere to get balance. So what do you do? Stand up, be the boss and don't give a choice. After all, you're the one that pays the bills and puts a roof over their heads and you're buying dog food lolll ok, that was my 2 cents on being the human alpha.

LORD don't get me started on my kids… that is another thread ALL together… can I send my kids to Canada?!! Maybe Wallygator too…

 

[Opie CHL]

I just read this Tracey. I hope you're able to get a handle on it. There's so much going on at your house you probably dobt know where to start!
Hopefully the neutering helps Wally a bit. We have fights here but it's usually Hershey lunging at chum in a hey lets play type of manner...Chum used to hold his own but with his leg issue now he just roles over and they grapple and bite each other's jowls. It turns nasty occasionally when a toy is involved Hershey gets serious. Usually jus a very loud No and he backs off. I can see on your end how much of a concern it becomes when you fear they're going to seriously hurt each other or when they're afraid of each other or not eating. Sorry for the delayed response ....very busy here too...and chum is going bald.
Good lick and hope you make headway with the behaviorist