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Thread: Breathing

  1. #1
    Baxter Tiberius
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    Default Breathing

    I feel so bad listening to Baxter trying to breathe. Its got to be so annoying for him. He constantly readjusts his whole body to get his head into a position where the air will flow without a ton of obstruction.

    I've noticed that while he's sleeping, sometimes he will stop breathing for about 5-10 seconds. Then breathe really hard and really fast to catch up again. Sleep apnea is what this is called in humans. Common for EB's ?

    I wonder if the lack of oxygen issue is why english bulldogs develop brain, head tremor / neurological issues down the road. Random guess at best.

  2. #2
    Baxter Tiberius
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    Default Re: Breathing

    Interesting:

    J Appl Physiol. 1987 Oct;63(4):1344-50.

    The English bulldog: a natural model of sleep-disordered breathing.

    Abstract

    To establish a natural model of sleep-disordered breathing, we investigated respiration during wakefulness and sleep in the English bulldog. This breed is characterized by an abnormal upper airway anatomy, with enlargement of the soft palate and narrowing of the oropharynx. During sleep, the animals had disordered respiration and episodes of O2 desaturation. These were worst in rapid-eye-movement (REM) sleep, with most bulldogs having O2 saturations of less than 90% for prolonged durations. In contrast, control dogs never desaturated. In REM sleep, the bulldogs had episodes of both central and obstructive apnea, the latter being associated with paradoxical movements of the rib cage and abdomen. During wakefulness, the bulldogs were hypersomnolent as evidenced by a shortened sleep latency (mean of 12 min compared with greater than 150 min for controls). This animal model should facilitate studies of the natural history of the sleep apnea syndrome and its complications.




    --------------
    This is so interesting to me. Okay so first off, sleep apnea has one major symptom: Constantly tired all day. Hypersomnolence. Sound familiar with english bulldogs? Secondly, long durations of oxygen desaturation are extremely bad for the brain. This means for extended periods of time, there is oxygen deprivation in the dogs blood supply, and therefore brain. This of course can cause all kinds of neurological problems long-term. Lastly, the sleep latency (time it takes for the bulldog to go from a waking state to a sleeping state) was 12 minutes versus 150 minutes. Its interesting because I, like I'm sure many of you here, just think our bulldogs are lazy. When in fact the difficulty breathing can result in sleep apnea disorder, which in turn results in sleeping all day long, constantly being tired, and unfortunately low oxygen saturation to the brain. I suppose instead of thinking its cute how "lazy" they are, we could be thinking of ways to help them sleep better. I'll have to think about that one as I can't come up with any ideas right now. Interesting either way.

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    Default Re: Breathing

    I'd sure pay money to see how you can keep a Bully hooked up to a C-pap machine, Knowing my boys would chew the mask upp in nothing flat, and then the machine, electric cord, and thats if I could get one still enough to put the mask on. hahahahahahaha Seriously, its a thought thats crossed my mind more than once, being I have sleep apnea.

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    Texas Carol....put the heart in EBN Become a 4 Paw Member
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    Default Re: Breathing

    You know, Kevin~you are quite 'the thinker' and so curious about everything too.

    I like that...a lot!


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    RIP beloved boy.

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    Default Re: Breathing

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Carol View Post
    You know, Kevin~you are quite 'the thinker' and so curious about everything too.

    I like that...a lot!
    Me too!!! Kevin your posts are very interesting, I'm wondering if you work in research of some kind?!! LOL

    "What we once enjoyed and deeply loved, we can never lose, for all that we love deeply becomes a part of us." Helen Keller
    RIP Wellie, Bella, Winston & Roxie

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    Bully Bootie Duty Become a 4 Paw Member RazrRila99's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breathing

    Colossus does the same thing. I make sure that I can hear him breathing each time I notice hes asleep. Just sounds so labored.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Breathing

    That's so Interesting Kevin, I haven't observed laboured breathing in my two guys, other than after they play hard, or run at the park for 20 mins, they will pant, but they don't have problems breathing when they sleep, although they do snore occasionally. I also have sleep apnea.
    LEARN A LESSON FROM YOUR DOG, NO MATTER WHAT LIFE BRINGS YOU, KICK SOME GRASS OVER THAT AND MOVE ON.

  8. #8
    I'm not OCD....now who moved my bulldog? I am an EBN Reporter
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    Default Re: Breathing

    Yes, it is common if they have the elongated palate or narrow nostril nares. My boy needed the surgery as did my Frenchie.... they both had very bad sleep apnea and if this is something that Baxter MAY need, get a second opinion and you may want ask about waiting till they are 2 yrs old.... my vet waited on both of ours till age 2, because they can grow till that age and if done too early you may need to do the procedure a second time.
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    Thank you for all the love, fun and teachings




  9. #9
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    Default Re: Breathing

    2 out of 6 of my Bulldogs had surgery for elongated pallets. It helped with their breathing and allowed them to be more active and to live longer.

  10. #10
    Kennel Cleaner MelanieNormansMom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breathing

    How do you know if you have an elongated pallet? I haven't noticed apnea or labored breathing with Norm but boy howdy! Can that boy snore! It's like a polar bear in a cave with echoes!

  11. #11
    Baxter Tiberius
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    Default Re: Breathing

    I did more reading on the sleep apnea thing last night and its a pretty important topic for english bulldogs. Baxter definitely stops breathing while he's sleeping and that is concerning to me, because it is brain/oxygen deprivation. Also increases his blood pressure significantly which may be why I see his face is so "red" under the white fur while he sleeps. This is damaging to the heart over the long term. He's still a puppy so I am going to keep reading to see if there's some way to address this early on.

    @Casper you nailed it! I wish someone would invent a cpap for bullys. I just found it so peculiar that english bulldogs had all of these very specific, yet seemingly random, yet very serious medical problems. (head tremors, heart weakness, cardiovascular problems, etc). Then I noticed baxter not breathing, and found that sleep apnea causes all of these things.

    When your bulldogs eyes are moving rapidly, that means he's at his deepest stage of sleep (REM). If the breathing stops happen more often during this period, its called "central sleep apnea" and they blame the brain for not triggering breathing. I still believe if their airways were unobstructed, this wouldn't happen at all. CPAP machines have something like a 95% cure rate and all they do is improve airflow.

    Everything I read says "Sleep apnea should be treated immediately, dont wait". That tells me its really an important issue for long term health. Correct that waiting till 2 makes sense.

    When i see it happening I try to rub his belly and tell him to breathe and he starts up again immediately. To answer everyone's question - i guess my curiosity stems from a love for understanding biology, the body, and medical topics. I run a couple medical related websites which educate consumers and act as liaisons between doctors and patients. I think what I love the most is that for every "condition" there is a cause, and steps you can take to fix it. You just have to figure out what it is. As you probably guessed my favorite show was "House"

    @2BullyMama @Alice Kable
    Thank you. You are all correct. Im apprehensive for surgery, but you're correct. This is the way its treated with english bulldogs. The simple fact is that oxygen deprivation and nightly blood pressure spikes are very damaging to the brain and heart. So i think it would be worth it, no doubt. I agree with you that it increases your dogs lifespan. So interesting isn't it, that simple as simple as 5 second pauses in breathing could one day result in a heart attack, or head tremors?

    @MelanieNormansMom
    Ill let the others comment, but I read in a book that you can determine this by noticing that the lower jaw is not jutting out as far as with other bulldogs. Seems kind of vague, but im sure a vet would know for sure.

    I'll post anything more I can find into this thread in the future. If anyone wants to invent a CPAP for a bully .... LOL ... good luck.
    Last edited by Baxter Tiberius; 09-19-2013 at 02:18 PM.

  12. #12
    Newbie kanderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breathing

    Very interesting, Kevin.
    Stouffer does something like this. I've never noticed it when he's in his REM sleep, though. First he will take a REALLY deep breath, blow it out, and then there is like a 5-7 second pause before he starts breathing again. Not sure if this is normal, but it always makes me a little nervous.

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