Does Daizy need surgery for Entropian or not?

[Daizy and Dukes mom]

Hey all, need some advice as I am starting to get very frustated with the moron vets in Ontario (no offense to the good ones, I just haven't found one yet). A little about us - I am currently owned by Daizy my bully who will be 2 on XMas and Duke an 18 mth old Frenchie.
I am currenlty on Vet #3, just switched. So about 6 months ago I brought Daizy to Vet #2 because her 3rd lid was protruding and I was worried it was the start of cherry eye, Vet #2 told me it was just dirt or bacteria, clean with sterile saline solution and use natural tears, no entropian. Daizy's eyes are very teary, she occasionally squints & blinks. I brought her to Vet #3 last week for a meet & greet and first thing she asks me is how come I havent' addressed her entropian? Vet #3 tells me she needs the surgery (but apparently she needs to lose a bit of weight of first). So who do I believe? Starting to get frustated!!! SHould I bring her for a 3rd opinion??? I am from Brampton, ON Canada, is there anyone out there from my neck of the woods who might be able to recommend a good vet close to me. And does anybody have any advice on what to do about the entropian surgery? Thanks
If I posted a pic of her eyes close up, would anybody be able to tell if she need the surgery or not?

 

[malaviKat]

Ah I totally feel your pain! (I am in the neighborhood, more or less.) buffalobabie has a vet in Oakville (I think it's Oakville) that she really likes. Message her for the details. I think we are going to try him out soon. Although I like my vet (he's a good guy and he's nearby) there are certain things (like record keeping) that I think could be a bit better so I am making a similar transition as well.

For whatever it's worth, I wrote Chance's breeder when our vet diagnosed entropion and I was told that entropion can (though not always) be situational. It can be brought on by allergens in the air (or other irritants) that promote conjunctivitis (red eye, swelling, tearing etc.) and the swelling and movement of the eyelids will lead to them squinting and tearing further. In her experience she says that treating the conjunctivitis often alleviates entropion. Having said that, my breeder recommends a fluorescein stain at a vet opthamologist to check to ensure that there is no corneal ulcer/abrasion present. If there is, then you may want to consider surgery sooner rather than later.

As an aside, we have been using the thick gel drops on Chance's eyes and found they helped far more than the regular tears or rewetting drops.

Breeder recs for a good opthamologist:
Dr. Sue West (in Midland)

Breeder warning NOT to visit:
Dr. Zigler (I believe this is the guy who works out of Sauga/Oakville Emerg.) She said that people have had a lot of questionable experience with him.

 

[BruceP]

I hope you find a solution to the problem. Our Princess Gracie's vet  thought that she may need enthopian surgery but wanted to try Optimmune ointment for a while first. He had us use it twice a day and after 90 days I took her in for retesting her tear production and it has increased to the point where the vet declared that she won't need the surgery, just use Optimmune once a day. Whether this is appropriate for Daizy I guess only the Vet can say but it may be worth asking about. Optimmune is prescription so I guess you need his blessing unless you can find it online somewhere.  <br>Good luck with Daisy. <br><br>

 

[cali~jenn]

I would def find a specialist or something if you arent happy with the vets so far. Not sure what you have there but if you look up the AAHA accredited hospitals you are in good hands also. I guess that is like the elite of the vets who get that accreditation. To say surgery on your first meeting and not even ask what the plan has been up til now is a bit off I would think in my gut anyhow.

 

[izstigspunks]

I went to the Brookville Vet Clinic up in Campbellville (Milton area) to get Stig's cherry eye fixed. I replied to your other thread with the address and other info. Malavikat is correct, entropion and other eye issues can be brought about by allergens, including food, environment, bug bites, etc. One of the first things we ask here is what food you're feeding. Do you find that your bully is showing other signs of allergies?

Welcome to the group. Hopefully you'll find the answer you're looking for.

 

[Daizy and Dukes mom]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Im kind of food crazy, We were feeding Natural Balance LID, which I like, but just recently found out they are manufactured by Diamond, makes me worry, switched to Addiction kangaroo for an allergy trial for my Frenchie (paw licking, I think it is a bad habit as he masturbates as well...lol), like NB better so back to that. I have also done NV raw, the kids loved it but the Frenchie vomits after, I homecook occassionally, so figuring out if it allergy related is kind of hard. Wouldnt know where to start for an elimination diet as I think they have had every protein possible. I dont see any thing else allergy related for her, other than her eyes she is very healthy. I have heard of Brookville, is that Dr Ball? I actually was a little concerned he might be retiring soon as he is a little bit older. So frustating finding someone who knows and likes bully's. Thanks again guys

[MENTION=1209]savemejeebus[/MENTION] - Do you use Brookville regularly?

@ malaviKat - HATE Missauga/Oakville referral, had a neuro there who basically ignored me because I refused an MRI for my epileptic mini schnauzer and didnt' return calls until 2 wks after i lost him. Would go to OVC first.
It seems to be I get better advice and learn way more from great sites like this. Thanks again!!!

 

[izstigspunks]

@savemejeebus - Do you use Brookville regularly?

Not regularly, I live in the Durham region so it's a couple of hours away. I now go to the East York Clinic only because they gear towards the natural meds side if possible.

But I felt that Stig's cherry eye surgery had to taken care of by an experience bully vet, and Dr. Ball's clinic is the one that the club recommended. There's another recommended one in Waterloo, but don't know if you'd like to travel that far. The vet who took care of Stig was Dr. Jenn. She's really young, but seem to know her bullies well. She answered all the questions I had with confidence so that was a big plus. Beware of the techs though, they can get cranky for some reason. lol.

I'd go there if your bully's having eye issues. I'm very happy with how Stig's eye turned out. I remember going there for a follow up too when the swelling didn't go away after a couple of weeks and they were able to accomodate us with a check-up and a new ointment with no charge. Another big plus.

 

[ABEBD]

Hello,
Pictures would be hard to tell from. the diagnoses invlolves looking into the inside of the eye lid area. Yes there is reason to be concerned.
So If I read correctly, Vet #2 say the dog 6 months ago and Vet #3 recently saw the dog.
Go back to vet #2 for a follow-up. Being frusted is less important than the health of the dog.
Time consuming but the right choice in the end is the best choice.
Entropiam surgery is very common and can be done with minimal complications.
Does vet #2 or #3 have more experince in the surgery. Compare costs, and your gut feel.

Good Day~

 

[Daizy and Dukes mom]

Refuse to go back to Vet #2 as she just did neuter surgery on my Frenchie and gave him Phenobarbital as an induction agent, when I questioned her the 1st time, she told me it is standard procedure for her to use Pheno, when I asked why her tech told me it was because he had seizures, she said the tech wasnt' familiar with Dukes chart and just assumed he had seizures, meanwhile same tech had him on her lap for 4 hrs because of resp distress after surgery. I dont give the kids vaccinations other than the puppy series. I had a mini shnauzer who became epileptic after a rabies vaccination, this was noted on my Frenchies chart as the reason I declined vacc. So someone didn't read the chart properly and such gave Pheno as an induction agent, and then lied about the reason for using it. So long story not so short, wont be going back there. I think I will try Brookville as recommended as OP and see how it goes. I understand mistakes get made, but I also expect honesty and not a cover up.

Would never compromise on the kids health, but also cant bring to someone who outright lies. 3rd vet never got down and looked at her eye, just gave me her opinion from looking at her and she is a tall woman...lol

 

[Daizy and Dukes mom]

Made an appt with Brookville for tomorrow at 9:45. I believe we will be seeing Jen. so will find out tomorrow if it is really needed or not. Wish me luck.

Hey savemejeebus, do you know what there costs are like? How much was it for Stig's cherry surgery? Thanks again for the referral :D

 

[BabyDuke]

Hi let me know how you make out! Duke had this surgery done on both eyes with great success. We took him to a vet opthamologist.

 

[Daizy and Dukes mom]

So we went to see Dr Ball at Brookville as recommended by savemejeebus and the bulldog club of Canada. He confirmed she needs the surgery, lower lids. He does entropian surgery by the wedge method (knife), my vet does these surgeries by laser. So i guess the decision is who to get it done by. The wedge method is half the price of laser, but I believe recovery time is longer. I dont mind paying for the laser if it is less pain and cuts on recovery time. Has anybody had the entropian surgery by laser? and does anybody have an opinion on which they prefer and why?? Let me know. Thanks, so happy to find a group that is so helpful

 

[Teresa]

It sounds like she needs the surgery .My vet sees a lot of bullies but has raised his prices to high 4 me .I am going to a new vet but my other vet will be the only one to do surgery.