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Thread: Okay...hope it's alright to discuss this...Kennel Clubs

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    Default Okay...hope it's alright to discuss this...Kennel Clubs

    I haven't seen anything recently posted about this, but I would really like to discuss it. Please know that I am not trying to start an argument and I am not knocking any of the clubs, but instead seeking opinions and information .

    We have 3 different breeds of dogs...English Mastiffs (both AKC), English Bulldogs (AKC and NKC) and American Pit Bull Terriers (UKC and ADBA).
    Each club has their own rules and breeds; some will accept certain breeds that others will not, etc.
    If the dog is not being purchased for showing, it really doesn't matter where they're registered, other than knowing that the breed you are purchasing is the breed you are getting. But, because AKC sets the standard, many people are turned off when bulldogs are not registered with AKC, even though they have no intentions on breeding or showing.

    With AKC, inbreeding is allowed. In my opinion, this is just plain ignorant. I understand breeding for certain traits and sticking to the 'standard' established by AKC. Personally, with my bulldogs, the AKC registered ones have more health issues than the NKC registered one. Also, I know that not every breeder is legitimate, regardless of who their stock is registered with, but I see LOTS of pictures of bulldogs that are AKC registered and have many flaws...some do not even look like English bulldogs in any sense except a couple of wrinkles. I know that there are breeders out there that are trying to get rich because they see the prices of bulldogs, but so many bash other kennel clubs. Again, in my opinion, if the only advertisement you have is, "...these are REAL AKC and not FAKE CKC", etc. then you have no idea what you're talking about. Just because a dog is not AKC does not mean they do not adhere to the breed standard and/or have not been bred legitimately.

    Maybe I only feel this way because I am a little chapped that AKC will not register my male EB, but nevertheless, some things just don't make sense. The reason they will not register him is because they were only able to trace his sire's side through AKC and not his dam's side. He fits the standard in pretty much every facet except he is very stocky (not fat at all) and weighs almost 70 lbs. He is muscular and thick. I wish conformation pictures would suffice, but unfortunately, just because he fits the standard does not necessarily mean his dam's side did.

    Again, just wanted to open this up for discussion/opinions/insight, etc. because I didn't see anything here previously. Thanks!

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    Default Re: Okay...hope it's alright to discuss this...Kennel Clubs

    Hmm this is interesting, and to be honest I don't know a lot about this at all!!! We bred our Bella last year, and she was already AKC registered along w/the sire…
    I will tag some members that hopefully can answer your questions… @Davidh, @desertskybulldogs, @2BullyMama ?!!!

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    Default Re: Okay...hope it's alright to discuss this...Kennel Clubs

    I do not really know anything about this.... Lisa and david may be able to help and they have already been tagged
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    Default Re: Okay...hope it's alright to discuss this...Kennel Clubs

    Please note that AKC does not only look at physical comformations to determine quality. The lineage is important in identifying a specific contributor to a genetic illness or even physical non-comformance. A lot of genetic traits are recessive and may not show up on a particular dog but will show up in its progeny. Therefore, a non-AKC dam is automatically disqualified from standards as they can't keep records of the genetic line if a consistent illness or consistent non-comforming trait pops up in its progeny.

    Different kennel clubs have different breed standards. And some of them are not very diligent in keeping lineage records.

    In an AKC breeding line, a non-comforming quality of the pup does not disqualify him from AKC. But, non-comforming dogs should not be bred and must leave the breeder's facility with strict controls (such as neutering/spaying) to guarantee it doesn't contribute to future progeny.

    AKC is not perfect - there are just too many dogs that can get "snuck" into an AKC breeding record as AKC doesn't send officials to make sure the puppy belongs to the dam and sire on record. It dilutes the AKC's credibility. But, as of now, this is our best way to control the quality of specific breeds. But it is still up to each individual breeder as well as each dog parent to maintain the breed standards. A breeder needs to protect its line by making sure only show quality dogs are bred. That's why it is important for breeders to show their dogs so that they have proof that their genetic line is in comformance, especially if it gets awarded certain prizes.

    In-breeding in and of itself is not bad. There are certain procedures responsible breeders follow to guarantee the quality of offspring by knowing when to introduce new blood line and still keep the target genetic trait while reducing the undesired traits/illness.
    Last edited by anatess; 11-11-2013 at 12:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Okay...hope it's alright to discuss this...Kennel Clubs

    AKC won't register Sheldon either but its because of where we got him, which its fine with me I don't mind I have no intentions of showing him or breeding him (neutered). There is a problem with chain of title (their wording) There is a story behind this which I intend to blog about maybe from Sheldon's perspective. The litter he was from was registered but they are concerned with how the lady I got him from came to be in possession of Sheldon as on the papers his breeders names are different than the lady who sold him to us they have an open investigation into the case right now into both the lady and the breeders and I can't find anything about the breeders on the internet because that was my first thought in my search to find Sheldon's sister (I wanted to make sure she found a loving forever home). AKC records are sealed so I'm stumped currently.

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    Default Re: Okay...hope it's alright to discuss this...Kennel Clubs

    You do have a point about some AKC registered dogs as some do slip through the cracks. But most of them are to the standard and all the reputable breeders I know, and myself included try to breed to this standard and try to better the breed. You said the NKC ARE healthier than AKC well that's not true. Yes you have very healthy ones on both sides, and you still get unhealthy ones too. The problem with CKC (continental kennel club) and NKC and so on, and this is probably why your pups dam can not get registered, is because a breeder that has a female that they sold as (pet quality) and do not want her bred for whatever reason, they will register her with AKC with a limited registration. Meaning if someone breeds her anyway (FOR MONEY ONLY) they cannot register the litter, so they go to CKC, NKC, or others and register them. Then they tell their buyers, their pups are better than AKC pups, knowing all the while they bred a bitch that should not have been bred for what ever reason. It is unfortunate that some slip through the cracks with AKC, and they get some that should never be bred and some unhealthy ones. This is a problem that will never go away as long as there are money hungry people out there that just want to make a quick buck and breed anything and don't care about the breed or the health of their pups. People need to stop buying pups that are not registered AKC, and maybe we can weed out the bad ones, but people just buy because they are cheap and don't care about whether they are registered or not and don't care if they are to standard.
    Have a Great Bully Day.
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    Pooper scooper mandymae7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Okay...hope it's alright to discuss this...Kennel Clubs

    Quote Originally Posted by anatess View Post
    Please note that AKC does not only look at physical comformations to determine quality. The lineage is important in identifying a specific contributor to a genetic illness or even physical non-comformance. A lot of genetic traits are recessive and may not show up on a particular dog but will show up in its progeny. Therefore, a non-AKC dam is automatically disqualified from standards as they can't keep records of the genetic line if a consistent illness or consistent non-comforming trait pops up in its progeny.

    Different kennel clubs have different breed standards. And some of them are not very diligent in keeping lineage records.

    In an AKC breeding line, a non-comforming quality of the pup does not disqualify him from AKC. But, non-comforming dogs should not be bred and must leave the breeder's facility with strict controls (such as neutering/spaying) to guarantee it doesn't contribute to future progeny.

    AKC is not perfect - there are just too many dogs that can get "snuck" into an AKC breeding record as AKC doesn't send officials to make sure the puppy belongs to the dam and sire on record. It dilutes the AKC's credibility. But, as of now, this is our best way to control the quality of specific breeds. But it is still up to each individual breeder as well as each dog parent to maintain the breed standards. A breeder needs to protect its line by making sure only show quality dogs are bred. That's why it is important for breeders to show their dogs so that they have proof that their genetic line is in comformance, especially if it gets awarded certain prizes.

    In-breeding in and of itself is not bad. There are certain procedures responsible breeders follow to guarantee the quality of offspring by knowing when to introduce new blood line and still keep the target genetic trait while reducing the undesired traits/illness.
    Excellent and educated response! I understand that it is the 'whole package' that AKC looks at and that is the purpose; I think I went a little awry with only stating his conformation 'looks'. That makes sense and that may quite possibly be the issue with my boy's dam's side of the family. It would be nice if breeders would do the right thing and provided 'limited registration' with puppies that have non-conforming traits that could be passed down from the parents. I will need to check into it more so, but I am not sure if NKC allows limited registration as an option when registering a litter.

    As far as in-breeding, I can somewhat understand with that explanation. However, it just seems like too close in line should make for disqualification or refusal to register. But, then again, BYB and puppy mills wouldn't care anyway and would falsify paperwork still.

    Thank you for the excellent input!

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    Default Re: Okay...hope it's alright to discuss this...Kennel Clubs

    Wow @Jennifer Clark that's crazy! It is unfortunate when circumstances like that arise. I wish you the best!

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    Default Re: Okay...hope it's alright to discuss this...Kennel Clubs

    I have seen many ads for English Bulldogs. From what I have seen, the ones that are registered with a non AKC registry are not much cheaper than alot of AKC pups. When I got my dogs, even though I was NOT planning on breeding, I preferred AKC, as I felt that they "probably" have more standards, as they have ancestors on registry, and may keep better records, as I bred dogs years ago and they were pretty particular. I see alot of cross-breeds that are now registered with other registries. I also investigate the breeder , and breeder's veterinarian, and talked to him personally.
    I used to raise,show and breed Arabian Horses, and that registry is so particular, it could be a nightmare! That is how the breed is kept pure-by vigilance.....
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    Pooper scooper mandymae7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Okay...hope it's alright to discuss this...Kennel Clubs

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidh View Post
    You do have a point about some AKC registered dogs as some do slip through the cracks. But most of them are to the standard and all the reputable breeders I know, and myself included try to breed to this standard and try to better the breed. You said the NKC ARE healthier than AKC well that's not true. Yes you have very healthy ones on both sides, and you still get unhealthy ones too. The problem with CKC (continental kennel club) and NKC and so on, and this is probably why your pups dam can not get registered, is because a breeder that has a female that they sold as (pet quality) and do not want her bred for whatever reason, they will register her with AKC with a limited registration. Meaning if someone breeds her anyway (FOR MONEY ONLY) they cannot register the litter, so they go to CKC, NKC, or others and register them. Then they tell their buyers, their pups are better than AKC pups, knowing all the while they bred a bitch that should not have been bred for what ever reason. It is unfortunate that some slip through the cracks with AKC, and they get some that should never be bred and some unhealthy ones. This is a problem that will never go away as long as there are money hungry people out there that just want to make a quick buck and breed anything and don't care about the breed or the health of their pups. People need to stop buying pups that are not registered AKC, and maybe we can weed out the bad ones, but people just buy because they are cheap and don't care about whether they are registered or not and don't care if they are to standard.
    I can understand that some slip through the cracks, but it is just ridiculous at how many are out there that in no way fit the standard and people are selling them like hot cakes with claims to 'champion lines', etc.

    *Please note that I did not say that NKC are healthier than AKC. My words were, "Personally, with my bulldogs, the AKC registered ones have more health issues than the NKC registered one." I understand that there are those out there that this is not the case with and I may have just gotten lucky with my boy.

    Very interesting on the limited registration issue; thank you for pointing that out. AKC did research my boy's ancestry on both sides and his sire comes from excellent lines, it's just his dam's records cannot be found through AKC at all. I did not think about that being a possibility; I will definitely research into it to try to figure it out. I still keep in close contact with my breeder so she may divulge some information to me on the dam's side (she has my boy's mother and grandmother).

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect where you're coming from. However, if the other kennel clubs are the problem, why is it that there are so many (just from what I have seen - not stating a fact) AKC pups with issues in health, temperament and conformation? You can buy a 'bad' AKC pup just as quickly and pricey as a 'bad' CKC or NKC pup. Maybe it was bad on my part, but I actually paid more for my NKC boy than I did for my 3 other babies that are AKC with some champions in each of their lines (maybe that's why they have health issues....just thought about that ;-). My issue and reason for stating what I did about what some people are putting in their advertisements was that they were attacking the other kennel clubs instead of advertising the important facts surrounding why someone should buy one of their pups; that was all.

    Again, my intentions were not to create havoc on this topic or to be criticized; I wanted to open this up for discussion. If someone wants to purchase a pet for their family, registration shouldn't be as critical. When you adopt from a rescue or a shelter, you do not have papers and many times have no idea what genetic issues they may be predisposed to.
    Last edited by mandymae7; 11-11-2013 at 02:14 PM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Okay...hope it's alright to discuss this...Kennel Clubs

    Quote Originally Posted by mandymae7 View Post
    As far as in-breeding, I can somewhat understand with that explanation. However, it just seems like too close in line should make for disqualification or refusal to register. But, then again, BYB and puppy mills wouldn't care anyway and would falsify paperwork still.

    Thank you for the excellent input!
    There is no rule against in-breeding or line-breeding because these methods are the only methods that can fix a certain undesired trait without losing the desired trait.

    The only reason in-breeding and line-breeding becomes undesirable is when the breeder is not diligent in identifying undesired traits that went with the genetic purification so that the progeny gets a purified undesired trait as well. A good example of this is the white doberman breeding project. The first white doberman was a healthy one. The breeder line-bred the dobie to get a white line. This is an acceptable method and is how most dog breeds are started. Breeders in-breed/line-breed up to a certain point and then branch out to introduce new genetic material and then in-breed/line-breed from there again up to a certain point.

    Unfortunately, the white dobie breeding project came with undesirable psychological and physical traits (some of which may be contributed by white dobies that are also albino dobies) that the breeder failed to identify. Usually, when this pops up, you cut off breeding on that line and concentrate on other lines introducing new blood that you know doesn't have those undesirable traits to stamp out that undesirable trait and continue on with line-breeding from there. It takes at least 20 years to get a breed good enough to leave a project and go to the public. And it takes even longer than that for a breed to be identified with AKC as a breed standard. The white dobie breeding project succeeded in purifying the white color AND the undesirable physical and psychological trait which basically ruined the entire project so much so that the existing white dobies cannot be bred to non-whites even in the same family to try to stamp out the undesired trait because it has propagated so far as to make all white dobies in the project tainted with the bad traits so that re-introducing the mixed color back to the white line is going to be a crap shoot. You will have to go back to scratch to try the white line again but then the stigma of the white dobie is going to be very hard to overcome.

    Another example is the whatever-poo projects. This is such an idiotic breeding project that I don't even have words for it. The reason for the -poo is to get a non-shedding/allergy-friendly dog as poodles come with a double-coat that traps shed hair. Unfortunately, the original breeders did not have any intention of creating a breed line. They have a handicapped person who is allergic to dogs and so these guys who train service dogs tried to come up with a solution by breeding their smart service dogs with a poodle to hopefully get a non-shedding smart pup. They line-bred the very first labradoodle that looked promising until they found that ONE dog that did not shed and was trainable for service, gave it to the handicapped person who has dog sensitivity and it worked out perfectly, so that's the end of their project and they sold off the other dogs that didn't get picked. Well, BYB got hold of the dogs and went wild with it. So, they have whatever-poo labeled non-shedding/smart dogs and the public goes and gets one and they end up in the pound because... surprise, surprise, they shed and they're not too smart! The only way you can get the claim of non-shedding smart dog is if you take that ONE dog that didn't shed and line breed/in-breed him to purify the trait until you get litter after litter and generation after generation of non-shedding smart dogs.
    Last edited by anatess; 11-11-2013 at 02:33 PM.

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Okay...hope it's alright to discuss this...Kennel Clubs

    I have had dogs as pets that were not registered and you can love them just as much! I have found many times in life, with breeders of animals-all kinds of animals,
    that many of them want to down other breeders-some of the stories may be true. But it rubs me the wrong way when they right away bad mouth others. Many times, as with all species(not just dogs) I feel it is a jealousy issue. If the AKC would not register your boy, his dam must not have been registered with them-I believe that is one of the reasons WHY the other registries were started. You may correct me if I am wrong.....since I not longer breed dogs.
    "
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