5 questions

[LiLlilly]

Well, I've been into Bullies for quite a long time now and thought it would be fun to start learning about breeding. Not sure if its anything I ever want to do, but I absolutely love this breed, and would love to produce my own champions one day. This isn't something I plan on doing tomorrow, but maybe in a decade from now...maybe lol. I just want to start learning now though, so if I do I will be prepared, and be fully aware of all the details that are involved. Just some dumb basic questions...

First off I want to know this. Bullies are a lot of money. We all know this. Is it true you really don't make ANY money breeding? I find it really hard to believe that NO money is ever made when there are litters of 8 pups going for 2-3k a piece! Everything I have read says you don't make money, it costs money. I guess this can be the case sometimes and needs to be expected, but a litter of 8 would create 16-24 thousand dollars? You're telling me it cost 16 grand to raise puppies? Obviously you're not getting rich doing this, but c'mon...None? I find it very hard to believe that everyone is breaking even every time. I don't know if its just a breeder thing and you're all very secretive about the $$ end of it all, or what but it shouldn't be a secret at all. I think you all should be making a lot money. That's A LOT of work lol. I'm sure that's not the case, but how do you not make ANY? Is it just small litter = no money, and big litters = some money? Cash seriously has nothing to do with my motives for breeding so don't think that's why I'm thinking about doing it. This is simple math, and I just want to know the truth. The numbers just don't match up to what people are saying. If my numbers are wrong, then everything I just said is moot. But if someone can clear this up, I'd really appreciate it.

2. Knowing that there is SO much risk involved in breeding bullies, why do it? How do you all justify risking your dogs life? I want to breed but would feel horrible thinking I might be killing her. How do you get passed that? Or is it that it's just not AS risky as it is said to be?

3. Is it possible to work f/t and raise puppies, or do you have to basically be unemployed? Seems like a lot of time, and I don't know how it could be possible to work and breed.

4. How long do your litters last once they're for sale? Do you ever no sell one and are left with pups?

5. ONLY BREEDERS ANSWER THIS: Out of all your litters, how many times have you lost the mother?

PS Not looking to get an ear-full on asking about the $$ question. I'm NOT thinking about doing this for money, I'm simply asking because of all the information I have come across. My information might be wrong, but like I said...Simple math is simple math. Thanks for all your answers and demystifying all of this.

 

[bullmama]

I would love to answer your questions so I am going to answer one at a time, I am on my iPod so I can't go back n forth.

Question #1

The initial investment on a litter is very high. Unless you are what I call a "big breeder" (someone who breeds 5-10 bullies a year or more) and consistently have big litters, of course they are making money-- lots of it!!!

A lot of breeders do whatever to cut costs as well. This is on the moms and puppies, therefore not raising healthy puppies. Like feeding junky dog food for example.

For someone to do this for "just one litter, I want to keep a puppy" or "I want to make some money" it is certainly NOT worth it. There are numerous factors involved that should be looked into before even considering it. Who is going to perform the c section? Who is going to do the artificial insemination? Who is going to give the shots? X-rays? Who are you paying to be the stud? Is your bulldog healthy? Has your bulldog ever had any genetic issues? Does your bulldog resemble the standard set forth by the BCA? Would the stud being used help improve the faults of the Dam and vice versa?

The average sized litter of bulldogs is about 4-5. So the chances are just as high to have 2 as they are to have 7.

Many who breed also show, so to get a Ch bulldog is a huge investment as well.

It also depends highly on having a mentor and the little things that cannot be written but only experienced. I just had a litter of two and one of the puppies ended up getting an abcess that cost over $1,000 to get surgery and all the vet visits. So yeah, we did not really make anything or certainly not much for 12 weeks of hard work because it is the same to do for 2 as it is for 5, just less poop. And we had 90% of our supplies already so if we would have had to buy those, we would have lost a lot!

So basically there is a lot of factors involved. If I evened it out we have probably only made a couple thousand per litter, if even that, because we paid numerous stud fees where it did not take (no puppies).

#2. Yes it is a HUGE risk. What is needed to do it confidently is a vet whom you trust with your bulldogs life. How many c sections have they preformed in the past? Do they allow you to be there while the delivery takes place? Do they make you sign no fault death papers? Do you feel confident to know the signs of when it is time? Can you be with your girl 24/7 to make sure she is doing well? When you did the artificial insemination how many times was it done? The more times the larger the window becomes fir delivery.

#3. I trust my vet, took me two years to have another litter after the first one. The first vet was slow and ignorant, and it cost 6 puppies their life. I also love raising the puppies. I enjoy each minute I get to spend with them, and I love to hold them, and keep in touch with them after they leave. I am more of a hobbyist and have an obsession with bulldogs, and my favorite part of my day is stalking facebook profiles of my puppy owners. My kids love it also and I enjoy teaching them about what is right and what is wrong when it comes to raising and starting a good foundation for them. When I get new photos they all come running to see them. It is something we all do together as a family.






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[bullmama]

Okay I guess my #3 answer is still number 2.

#3. Full time job... No way. Raising a litter of bulldog puppies is a full time job. Unless you have someone to care fir them while you are working. You cannot leave the mom in there with the pups alone, they are not very graceful and will sit on them!


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[bullmama]

#4. Reputation has a lot to do with this.

#5. Never. I would probably never do it again if that happened. That would be like living my worst nightmare.


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[LiLlilly]

@desertskybulldogs

WOAH!!

Thanks for the mother load of info!! You're very kind for taking all that time to write that thanks!!

I knew it lol!! I always got annoyed when I heard you don't make anything. I felt like it was some kind of method to deter people to not breed so the market doesn't get over saturated or something. Thanks for being honest about everything, and being so thorough!

Looks like I got my work cut out for me though lol...I can't imagine how gratifying that is though. I know when I picked up Chester for the first time I don't think I was ever so excited in my entire life. I can' t imagine the feeling of being on the other end and seeing peoples faces light up...Must be hard watching them go though. I'd be balling my eyes out every time. I know my breeder was :[

 

[RiiSi]

[MENTION=2]desertskybulldogs[/MENTION] I'm no breeder or ever will be, but a good friend with Usko's breeder and we talk about breeding. So I'm not claiming here to know anything. I was just wondering do you ever try to mate your bulldogs the old fashion way or give natural birth. With some breeders here that is the aim. Of course it doesn't work every time, but sometimes it does. And of course there must be a doctor available in case there is need of C-section. Is artificial incemination and C-section always necessary?

 

[bullmama]

[MENTION=2]desertskybulldogs[/MENTION] I'm no breeder or ever will be, but a good friend with Usko's breeder and we talk about breeding. So I'm not claiming here to know anything. I was just wondering do you ever try to mate your bulldogs the old fashion way or give natural birth. With some breeders here that is the aim. Of course it doesn't work every time, but sometimes it does. And of course there must be a doctor available in case there is need of C-section. Is artificial incemination and C-section always necessary?

The dangers in both cases is overheating. So no, I would never put them at risk by doing it that way. Also for birth they can easily get stuck in the birth canal, another huge risk. Bulldogs are also prone to have water puppies (luckily we have never had one, but I know a lot of breeders have as many as one per litter), and they are far too large to birth. While it is possible to do it all naturally, it is also putting a huge risk on both dogs but especially the mother. Being prepared to do an emergency c section is great, but it is not easy to put them under using iso, so if you have to put them under quickly then you would have to use something that will also go to the puppies, so a natural delivery is risky to mother and pups. Not worth it to me. My #1 job is to protect my girls, I would never take chances. I also know of a breeder who woke up to a litter of puppies although never intended. So it is possible, just dangerous.


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[Davidh]

Well I breed for show, and what little bit of money I make goes back into my bullies. There are vet bills, show cost and handler fees, and if you show your own then you have travel cost. Plus you may only get one or two pups and there you lost money. If you get lucky and have a large litter you make some but like myself it goes back into my dogs. So needless to say I don't do it for the money, I do it to produce the best bully I can through careful breeding. It ticks me off when people think they are going to make a lot of money and breed their bully. They get one and just breed it to the first stud they find and the next thing you know they have a bunch of unhealthy, or ugly bullies. You need to do your homework and do research on your bullies family history and genetics, plus the same thing is true for the other one you will breed with.

I would never let one of my girls have a litter naturally, that's a good way to loose mom and pups. Even doing it right sometimes goes wrong. A good friend of mine who has been breeding for a long time just recently loss her mam and all the pups. It was really a heart breaking thing. But this is the chance you always take. We have a female who we were going to breed again this fall when she came into heat again because we were skipping one heat cycle, but we almost lost her when she got pyometra. We were lucky I spotted a sign and took her in when I did or she would be dead. They had to do an emergency spay on her. So there was an unexpected cost. If you just breed and don't show, you can make some money, but I'd say just starting out the first litter you will more than likely just break even or even loose money.

 

[ABEBD]

Hello,

Great questions. You will see many differing opinions about breeding.

I will share mine. Some will agree , others will not.

 

[ABEBD]

Hello,

You have asked the $64K question.

Disclaimer, as allowed in this section, I am a breeder. This is NOT an advertisement, only factual experience and my opinion.


My wife and I were Arabian horse breeders and showed for 25 years. What we learned during that time we have applied to breeding Bulldogs.
to answer the question of making money is so hard to answer. Yes, you are right. Simple math does point to that.

However, as others have posted, what is considered making money?

We have 7 bullies in our breeding program now. 6 have been imported from Europe and S. Africa. (that is another topic of why, later).
We have paid $3000 and all the way up to $10,000 for one dog.
We have successfully had 4 liters and had as few as 2 and as many as 7, 16 total = 4 per liter average.
Our puppies have ranged from $2000 (with Military discount) up to $3500. Our prices reflect the economy not the value of the puppy.
We have kept 2 females to add to our breeding program, gave one to our daughter as a wedding present (was priced at $5k).
Adding up the vet visits, the AI, the c-sections and the initial investments of over $30K...I doubt that we have broken even yet.

But, I can tell you honestly that our decision also was NOT about making money.

Let's be honest, you would have to be stupid to continue to breed and loose money. Unless you are rich, breaking even JUST to be able to continue is important.

There are some mega breeders that have 30 bitches and sell over $100k @ year.

The problem I have with that is that there is NO control over the quality of what is being produced.

First and foremost we breed for Quality, Conformation and Wrinkles. If we can produce these qualities over and over, give back to the breed with health and conformation, then we will continue to breed.

Too many people do not understand or take the time to LEARN about breeding. Genetics, understanding conformation and standards.

During our time as Arabian breeders we GAVE away more horses than we sold. Even breeding to World Champion blood lines with CH pedigrees did NOT ensure the foal was what we wanted associated with our name and our breeding program. We did however produce 2 National Champion Jr Western Pleasure horse (one mare, one stallion) as well as many other Top Ten, Regional, Youth and Amateur horses.

This is what we apply to our breeding program.

Taking the time to learn about the process is the important first step.

I applaud you for asking the question. What you decide to do after you have the facts will show what you have learned.

Good Day~

 

[ABEBD]

#2
Knowing that there is SO much risk involved in breeding bullies, why do it? How do you all justify risking your dogs life? I want to breed but would feel horrible thinking I might be killing her. How do you get passed that? Or is it that it's just not AS risky as it is said to be?

Yes, it IS very risky. Learning about breeding and EVERYTHING there is to know can minimize the risk. Nothing is 100%

Making sure that you do the right things, the right way, with the BEST vet possible, the best mentoring will reduce the risk.

Humans having babies is dangerous.

Deciding WHY you want to breed determines the decision to breed.

Good Day~

 

[ABEBD]

3. Is it possible to work f/t and raise puppies, or do you have to basically be unemployed? Seems like a lot of time, and I don't know how it could be possible to work and breed.

What is possible is what can be arranged.

For the past 3 years we have been breeding Bulldogs and my wife and I both worked F/T.

Newborn bulldogs require F/T 24x7 day a week care for at LEAST the first 2 weeks. Since most deliveries are C-section, the mom is on pain meds for the first few days and is in NO shape to care for the puppies. Puppies need to be nursed often and even made to poo and pee at first. Gonna get gross here.

Also, Bulldog moms are NOT the most caring for the puppies. Stories abound of moms sitting on the puppy and the puppy yelling and the mom just continues to sit on the puppy. That is animal cruelty.

We were lucky enough that between our son and daughter, and minimal sleep for me, we set up a schedule for a 24x7 coverage for 2 weeks. We moved out out kitchen table, put in the baby pool and could sit and watch puppies, get mom to nurse when needed and take care of the puppies. We have never lost a viable puppy at all.


After the first 2 weeks, it does get easier and does not require 24 hr a day, but I did come home on my lunch time to care for them and even got up during the night for the next 3 weeks to care for them as well.

So, yes it is possible. But you need to have support and several people who can take turns watching them.

Good Day~

 

[ABEBD]

4. How long do your litters last once they're for sale? Do you ever no sell one and are left with pups?

This depends.

How are you marketing them? How are you selling them? How do you have them priced? What is the market condition? How much other competition is there?

Again, some people do not sell all of their puppies. We do.
We have never had any puppies be placed even by the time they were 9 weeks old.

Unlike some other breeders, we do not have a set price. We wait until they are 3 weeks old and then evaluate them. We do not have a set price for a male or a female. Each liter is priced accordingly. We also survey the market locally and nationally to price our puppies competitively. The prices range across the state and the country. What will the market bare?

We set our prices fairly and we end up placing all of our puppies. Some we have kept until they were 12 weeks old, others have left at 9 weeks. We will not allow to leave before 9 weeks. Each puppy has to prove to us that they are ready to leave the nest.

Quality always sells.

Good Day~

 

[ABEBD]

5. ONLY BREEDERS ANSWER THIS: Out of all your litters, how many times have you lost the mother?

NEVER!

We use a vet clinic that specializes in Bulldogs. I have used 2 other vets and this one is by far the BEST all around!

Not skimping on the vet care, having an experienced vet is a must.

There are more Bulldog breeders that have started to natural breed and even some bitches are now free-whelping. This is still very rare.

Taking the chance to free-whelp is not worth the risk of death of mom or puppies. Taking the bitch to the vet and to try to free whelp is also still dangerous. Since breeding by c-section limits liter to normally 3 liters, not risking a life is important.

G'day~